All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > The press forces an unnatural amount of turnovers
10/9/2013 4:05 AM
The press is a great defense since it has the advantage of creating a bunch of turnovers. I'm not aware of another defense that has such an inherent advantage. Yes, the man defense allows double teams, but I think their value is dubious.

In my opinion (since I don't run it) it's a little too advantageous. I know it's harder to recruit for, but so many teams run it for a reason.. Right?
10/9/2013 5:07 AM (edited)
The press used to be WAY better than the other defenses.  But, after an engine adjustment, it seems equal to man2man.   I've been successful with both defenses. I've won an equal number of national titles with both.
10/9/2013 9:36 AM
Agree with OP. Press produces ridiculous upside for teams without the downside of press-breakers and transition buckets anywhere near the same extent seen in RL. Most unrealistic part of this SIM, in my opinion.

Seems like press used more often than other D 's by successful human teams too; perhaps they believe the same.

Caveat: my vantage point is solely from the opposite side of a press. Have stayed with man (and a little zone) and not changed out any team D 's.
10/9/2013 9:54 AM
I'm not sure on the balance now. It is definitely better than before the new engine (as far as equality). Personally, I think when seble nerfed the fatigue effects after the new engine had been out a few months (where, admittedly, it was a pretty big factor for FCP teams) that he went a bit too far, and that maybe press has a minor advantage again (caveat - when run with the right players by coaches who know what their doing - all things being equal is my point). I've never run it successfully, but I am implementing it at Michigan St with tutelage from gillispie so hopefully I'll crack the secrets heh...
10/9/2013 11:35 AM
Posted by MyGeneration on 10/9/2013 9:36:00 AM (view original):
Agree with OP. Press produces ridiculous upside for teams without the downside of press-breakers and transition buckets anywhere near the same extent seen in RL. Most unrealistic part of this SIM, in my opinion.

Seems like press used more often than other D 's by successful human teams too; perhaps they believe the same.

Caveat: my vantage point is solely from the opposite side of a press. Have stayed with man (and a little zone) and not changed out any team D 's.
My experience is that when the pressing team has a talent advantage the effects appear to be more beneficial than m2m.  However, when the talent is similar, the m2m teams do better.


For example, my good press teams would cause 20 TO/g against teams I was better than but only 8-11 against teams of a similar talent level.  My good m2m teams will hold teams I am better than to 38% shooting but even the very good offensive teams still only shoot 42% against me.


I am kinda making up the #'s but they are close.
10/9/2013 12:04 PM
Posted by dacj501 on 10/9/2013 9:54:00 AM (view original):
I'm not sure on the balance now. It is definitely better than before the new engine (as far as equality). Personally, I think when seble nerfed the fatigue effects after the new engine had been out a few months (where, admittedly, it was a pretty big factor for FCP teams) that he went a bit too far, and that maybe press has a minor advantage again (caveat - when run with the right players by coaches who know what their doing - all things being equal is my point). I've never run it successfully, but I am implementing it at Michigan St with tutelage from gillispie so hopefully I'll crack the secrets heh...
+1
10/9/2013 4:25 PM
As I see it: (probably missing some things, so chime in and add as you'd like)

Zone -- Advantages: Low fatigue impact (can leave your best players in game 30+ minutes with high stamina), flexibility to adjust from 2-3 to 3-2 to account for opponent's inside/outside shooting proclivities. Can hide a weak defender as part of the '3' without significant danger. Fouls against the defense are low in number. Disadvantages: Weaker in rebounding than M2M. Talents of best defenders are neutralized by getting averaged with weaker players. A 3-2 will get eaten for lunch if you don't have solid rebounding /defense numbers as the '2'. Even a "strong" 2-3 defense seems to be susceptible to a good 3-pt. shooting team. Generates the fewest turnovers.

Man -- Advantages: Ability to control your matchups, putting best defender in opponent's best player. Strongest defense overall for rebounding. Best defense for trying to take a specific opposing player out of the gameplan (if you have the ratings), generates lowest opposing FG percentage vs. other defenses (all things being equal). Disadvantages: Weak defenders are easily exploited, rotation patterns need paid closer attention to, shifting players to cover opposing studs sometimes comes at the cost of juggling your offensive lineup (your high Def. PG might have to start in the SF slot for matchup purposes, reducing his effectiveness as the engine assumes the guy in the 1 slot is acting like the PG on offense...man teams should really have two depth charts, one for who is covering whom on defense, the other for who is playing in which slot for offense.)

Press -- Advantages: Generates a high number of turnovers. Can be strong against the 3pt shot, even at minus settings (I'm talking shooting percentages here, not limiting attempts). Disadvantages: No way to adapt defense for opposing team's stud players, enabling opposing coaches to amp distribution to top scoring threats. Fouls can pinball in some cases, especially when fatigue is also a factor, worst defense for rebounding (all things equal).  Requires the deepest bench, meaning weaker players will see more minutes here on average than any other defense.

10/9/2013 5:04 PM
I've always been under the impression that player fatigue is only effected by the number of possessions, not what team defense is used by a player's team. I guess since the zone forces the least amount of turnovers then there will be fewer possessions, therefore player fatigue ratings are affected to a lesser extent...but even then it would have nothing to do with the inherent nature of the zone itself, just a byproduct.
10/9/2013 5:37 PM
It is a function of possessions -- I do remember something being said about that in a devchat or Q&A thread around the time of the engine switch. But I think even within that framework, it seems there's an impact in how each defense affects fatigue per possession. (i.e.- all else being even, the same player would be more fatigued after 50 possessions playing press defense vs. 50 possessions of zone defense) which, when you think about it, would make some sense as the kid in the former, especially in the manner HD interprets press, would do a lot more moving than a zone defender each  possession. That's just based on feel and what I see for playing time for players of similar stamina ratings comparing my press and man teams and seeing the average minutes for others who run zone.

Maybe that's all accounted for by the turnover differences driving up possessions and the average number of fouls causing press kids to be more inclined to have to sub in/out due to foul trouble rather than fatigue issues. I'll definitely hold open that I'm perhaps seeing a correlation where none exists.
10/9/2013 6:17 PM
Posted by jc1796 on 10/9/2013 4:05:00 AM (view original):
The press is a great defense since it has the advantage of creating a bunch of turnovers. I'm not aware of another defense that has such an inherent advantage. Yes, the man defense allows double teams, but I think their value is dubious.

In my opinion (since I don't run it) it's a little too advantageous. I know it's harder to recruit for, but so many teams run it for a reason.. Right?
Well, yes, the press is supposed to create a bunch more turnovers. That's the advantage of an agressive, trapping defense. I don't think that's out-of-whack.

What I do think is off is that the press should give up more easy buckets.

The advantage in the press isn't as bad as it was pre-engine change (when it was absolutely comical), but I do think that the current engine still tips towards the press.
10/9/2013 6:46 PM
One other advantage I'll add about zone,is that you can recruit fewer players. You can spend more in a battle to get a star and take a walk-on. Or, you can just grab a one year or two year transfer cheaply for carry-over cash. You also have the ability to add talented ineligibles and not have as big a risk of them not reporting. The added recruiting bonus may help your zone-d, but can also have an impact on your offense, depending on the player you use it on.
10/9/2013 7:57 PM
I switched from press to man 8 or 9 seasons ago in Tark and since then I won 2 titles...  Beforehand I had none in over 90 seasons combined between worlds, never having played man.

Small sample size, obviously.  But still...
10/9/2013 7:58 PM
FWIW, I've had zone teams in Knight that were far better than either of my title teams, and press teams that were certainly better than my 2nd title team.
10/10/2013 6:05 AM (edited)
Posted by dahsdebater on 10/9/2013 7:58:00 PM (view original):
I switched from press to man 8 or 9 seasons ago in Tark and since then I won 2 titles...  Beforehand I had none in over 90 seasons combined between worlds, never having played man.

Small sample size, obviously.  But still...
Before the engine adjustment, I was playing man2man with Transylvania in Iba.  I became frustrated with the press dominance, switched to press mid-season, and won the NT.  That's how dominant the press was 'in the old days.'
10/10/2013 11:11 PM
No doubt.  I started playing at the end of the reign of press dominance.  But even since man was neutered a bit in the last update, I still think it's generally the best defense going right now at all levels.  Or at least the easiest to consistently win with.  If I have the best team I DEFINITELY want to be playing man.  MAYBE press has an extremely modest edge, but a much larger variance, which has always been the case, even when it was a dominant defense.  If I'm likely to have the best team in any given game, I want to be playing the gameplan with the least variance.
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