All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Cabrera won MVP
11/18/2013 8:45 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 8:13:00 PM (view original):
And if I had a baseball how valuable would his be?

Circumstances dictate the value.     Why can't you understand this?

I have a Molina.   You have two Poseys.    How valuable is your Posey to me?

Circumstance.
You get the no **** award. Just like if you and your friends had a baseball, you wouldn't need that kid's balls.

In this case, the circumstance is that there are 30 teams and only a couple catchers as good as Posey. So his value is high, even if you aren't willing to pay the price because you already have Molina.

But...again...this is off base. Trade value and production value aren't the same thing. Production value is all that matters in the MVP discussion.
11/18/2013 8:48 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 8:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 3:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:45:00 PM (view original):
This entire thing is beside the point. Someone (I can't remember who) argued that Trout was less valuable in 2013 because the Angels had Bourjos available to replace him. That this has gone on for several pages is a testament to getting waaay off track.

But, I think Cabrera plays 3B so poorly that moving him to 1B doesn't negatively affect his value. Fielder moves to DH which probably does negatively affect his value since he is only a below average first baseman, not a quadruple amputee, like Cabrera is at third.

 
The point I was making, and you confirmed with your 6.7/6.8 WAR, is value can depend on several factors.   Including teammates. 
How did teammates raise/lower Cabrera's WAR?
Change of positions.
And why didn't you respond to this?
I didn't see it.

Cabrera's defensive value didn't really change when he moved to third. He gets the positional adjustment, but he because gives away so many more runs at third, the positional adjustment is offset.
11/18/2013 8:48 PM
How valuable was Mike Trout to the Angels?
11/18/2013 8:57 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 11/18/2013 8:48:00 PM (view original):
How valuable was Mike Trout to the Angels?
Trade or production value?
11/18/2013 8:59 PM
Whatever.  You decide.
11/18/2013 8:59 PM
It's your question, dipshit.
11/19/2013 8:15 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 8:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 8:13:00 PM (view original):
And if I had a baseball how valuable would his be?

Circumstances dictate the value.     Why can't you understand this?

I have a Molina.   You have two Poseys.    How valuable is your Posey to me?

Circumstance.
You get the no **** award. Just like if you and your friends had a baseball, you wouldn't need that kid's balls.

In this case, the circumstance is that there are 30 teams and only a couple catchers as good as Posey. So his value is high, even if you aren't willing to pay the price because you already have Molina.

But...again...this is off base. Trade value and production value aren't the same thing. Production value is all that matters in the MVP discussion.
So, if circumstance can change value, why in the hell can't you admit that it can change the meaning, or at least vary, the V in MVP?

11/19/2013 8:15 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 8:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 8:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 3:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 3:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 3:37:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 2:45:00 PM (view original):
This entire thing is beside the point. Someone (I can't remember who) argued that Trout was less valuable in 2013 because the Angels had Bourjos available to replace him. That this has gone on for several pages is a testament to getting waaay off track.

But, I think Cabrera plays 3B so poorly that moving him to 1B doesn't negatively affect his value. Fielder moves to DH which probably does negatively affect his value since he is only a below average first baseman, not a quadruple amputee, like Cabrera is at third.

 
The point I was making, and you confirmed with your 6.7/6.8 WAR, is value can depend on several factors.   Including teammates. 
How did teammates raise/lower Cabrera's WAR?
Change of positions.
And why didn't you respond to this?
I didn't see it.

Cabrera's defensive value didn't really change when he moved to third. He gets the positional adjustment, but he because gives away so many more runs at third, the positional adjustment is offset.
I assume, if you had the numbers to prove this, you'd have posted them.
11/19/2013 9:08 AM
Already did. His 2011 WAR was the same as 2012.
11/19/2013 9:12 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 8:15:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 8:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 8:13:00 PM (view original):
And if I had a baseball how valuable would his be?

Circumstances dictate the value.     Why can't you understand this?

I have a Molina.   You have two Poseys.    How valuable is your Posey to me?

Circumstance.
You get the no **** award. Just like if you and your friends had a baseball, you wouldn't need that kid's balls.

In this case, the circumstance is that there are 30 teams and only a couple catchers as good as Posey. So his value is high, even if you aren't willing to pay the price because you already have Molina.

But...again...this is off base. Trade value and production value aren't the same thing. Production value is all that matters in the MVP discussion.
So, if circumstance can change value, why in the hell can't you admit that it can change the meaning, or at least vary, the V in MVP?

Because we aren't talking about the same thing. You "proved" that conditions in the market (two teams no baseballs, no money; tickets to a sold out concert; 30 teams and only a couple good catchers) affect the price you pay for those things. Again, no ****.

MVP voting has nothing to do with trade value.

Production value is all that matters and that isn't affected by circumstance.
11/19/2013 9:55 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 9:08:00 AM (view original):
Already did. His 2011 WAR was the same as 2012.
6.7 and 6.8 are NOT the same.   If we're just going to say "close enough", what will be YOUR pre-determined limit? 
11/19/2013 9:58 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 9:12:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 8:15:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/18/2013 8:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/18/2013 8:13:00 PM (view original):
And if I had a baseball how valuable would his be?

Circumstances dictate the value.     Why can't you understand this?

I have a Molina.   You have two Poseys.    How valuable is your Posey to me?

Circumstance.
You get the no **** award. Just like if you and your friends had a baseball, you wouldn't need that kid's balls.

In this case, the circumstance is that there are 30 teams and only a couple catchers as good as Posey. So his value is high, even if you aren't willing to pay the price because you already have Molina.

But...again...this is off base. Trade value and production value aren't the same thing. Production value is all that matters in the MVP discussion.
So, if circumstance can change value, why in the hell can't you admit that it can change the meaning, or at least vary, the V in MVP?

Because we aren't talking about the same thing. You "proved" that conditions in the market (two teams no baseballs, no money; tickets to a sold out concert; 30 teams and only a couple good catchers) affect the price you pay for those things. Again, no ****.

MVP voting has nothing to do with trade value.

Production value is all that matters and that isn't affected by circumstance.

And here's the disconnect.

The production of a player on a contender and the production of a player on a .500 can be viewed as production under a specific circumstance.   Some people feel there's more VALUE in the production of a player from a contender.    While it may be only .1, which you've declared the same, it is a different circumstance.

Much like adding Longoria to the Tigers would reduce the value, by your own admission, of Fielder and Victor Martinez even though they're still the same players.

11/19/2013 10:15 AM
You want to take a number and say "See?   10 is greater than 9.9.  10 is better and, therefore, the MVP."    Well, maybe not .1 because you've declared that to be the same.   But you know what I mean.   The MVP is a vote.   While you say "They're all fucktards", that's the way it's done.   And those fucktards aren't willing to accept your all-encompassing number.   But that's how voting works in this country.   People decide what's right for them and cast their vote that way.   That's why elections aren't unanimous.
11/19/2013 10:34 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/19/2013 9:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 11/19/2013 9:08:00 AM (view original):
Already did. His 2011 WAR was the same as 2012.
6.7 and 6.8 are NOT the same.   If we're just going to say "close enough", what will be YOUR pre-determined limit? 
Of course it isn't exactly the same but it's like the difference between hitting .329 and .326. Sure it's not exact, but it's essentially the same.
11/19/2013 10:36 AM
I need your number for "close enough".    For future reference.   Thanks in advance.
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