All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Disturbing comments from Cooperstown President.
12/2/2013 10:06 AM
Not illegally chemically enhanced.  

tec is confusing as **** but I think most people object to the "illegal" part of making oneself a better player.    And by "most people" I'm talking about those who refuse to accept Bonds, Clemens, etc, etc should be in the HOF.
12/2/2013 10:09 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2013 10:06:00 AM (view original):
Not illegally chemically enhanced.  

tec is confusing as **** but I think most people object to the "illegal" part of making oneself a better player.    And by "most people" I'm talking about those who refuse to accept Bonds, Clemens, etc, etc should be in the HOF.
I disagree. The illegality doesn't seem to bother people, as evidenced by the pass they give amphetamine users. I think they see steroids as some sort of super drug that allows players to "cheat the game."
12/2/2013 10:12 AM
Well, that's tec's position.    I don't think that's the majority opinion but I could be wrong. 
12/2/2013 10:16 AM
Posted by Got_Worms on 12/1/2013 10:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/1/2013 7:19:00 PM (view original):
The steroid "Mount Rushmore" is probably Clemens, Bonds, McGwire and Palmeiro. 

Clemens and Bonds were killing it before the 'roids.

Palmeiro was a .300 hitter before his power explosion.   McGwire averaged about 35 HR his first 6 seasons.

All 4 were pretty damn good before any "help".   How much was Mantle, Mays and Aaron helped by the energy boost?
I would swap Palmeiro for Canseco. He is the original roider and when his book came out, everybody thought he was just writing it for money but it seems pretty accurate to me. Pudge Rodriguez, Juan Gonzalez, and Rafael Palmeiro all took off once Canseco got to Texas in 1992. I have a feeling Canseco had something to do with Shawn Green & Carlos Delgado's immediate success in Toronto...:P
There's no baseline for Canseco.   He was always on it.   The 4 I listed have pre-roid careers. 
12/2/2013 10:28 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2013 10:12:00 AM (view original):
Well, that's tec's position.    I don't think that's the majority opinion but I could be wrong. 

That is my position.  But whatever, let's pretend that I'm dead wrong about it, and there is absolutely no difference between greenies and PEDs.

If the argument is going to be that "we let the greenie users into the HOF, so we have to let the PED users into the HOF", then how is that any different from the "Rice and Dawson and Blyleven are in the HOF, so we have to let Morris and Raines in as well"?

A bad precedent shouldn't be automatically binding for all similar future cases. 

12/2/2013 10:32 AM
That's not my argument.  I have no problem with letting the best players in the HOF regardless of how it's believed they got to be the best.
12/2/2013 1:58 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/2/2013 10:28:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/2/2013 10:12:00 AM (view original):
Well, that's tec's position.    I don't think that's the majority opinion but I could be wrong. 

That is my position.  But whatever, let's pretend that I'm dead wrong about it, and there is absolutely no difference between greenies and PEDs.

If the argument is going to be that "we let the greenie users into the HOF, so we have to let the PED users into the HOF", then how is that any different from the "Rice and Dawson and Blyleven are in the HOF, so we have to let Morris and Raines in as well"?

A bad precedent shouldn't be automatically binding for all similar future cases. 

then how is that any different from the "Rice and Dawson and Blyleven are in the HOF, so we have to let Morris and Raines in as well"?


A) Rice, Dawson, and Morris shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame because they aren't good enough, they bring down the standards for their positions. That's not true of Blyleven and Raines.

B) It's different because allowing inferior players into the hall defeats the purpose of the hall, diluting it. But drug users and cheaters are a part of baseball. Always have been and always will be. Not allowing guys like Clemens and Bonds into the hall also defeats the purpose of the hall by making it irrelevant.
12/2/2013 6:45 PM
I say Dawson does belong, the man played CF in the NL EAST during the peak of the Astro turf Era, he's the best of the bunch,  (except for Kirby)if your going to take numbers away form guys who took roids or amps, you should give him consideration of what astro turf did to his knees.
12/9/2013 12:40 AM
Here's the question: is the HOF for the best players ever?
Or the best players in each era?
Eras differ, and so the best players in an era may not be the best players ever.
12/9/2013 9:40 AM (edited)
Both.  And if it's "best players ever" then you can probably take out half of the guys pre-1930, they likely don't compare talent-wise to the players of today.
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