All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > SimLeagues LIVE > Squeeze Play Debate Once Again
11/29/2013 4:16 AM
Posted by arvidjosef on 11/28/2013 8:02:00 PM (view original):
Squeezing and base stealing aren't in the same realm. I draft low attempt high percent base stealers every team, but guess what, I never attempt a steal off an A plus arm. Just not prudent. Some leagues I steal tons, others I don't. Just depends on the quality of catchers and also my base stealers. But I ALWAYS lead the league in base stealing percentage. Always. Thievery is a discipline whereas squeezing is a mindless drone way to ensure a run.
They're both gaming the system and effectively garnering extra value out of your offensive players that you aren't charged for, why is one acceptable in your mind and the other not?
11/29/2013 9:41 AM
If you have a good catcher, base stealing against is not a problem. Squeezing is indefensible.

Strong armed catchers cost significantly more than noodle armed ones. You can draft a catcher who is a much, much better hitter for half the price than a rifle-armed stud, which I often do b/c catcher arms seem erroneously high priced. Of course I frequently pay for it in the playoffs when opposing managers run the bases on me like subway turnstiles. Then again, I have teams where I spend the ca$h on the arm and I literally never get run on with lasting success. Unlike the 'squeeze' maneuver, base stealing, and thwarting it, is a choice. Must be a flaw in the pricing system.

-As an aside, finding the Vic Davalillo's of the world can also be a pain in the @ss when drafting your team and fitting your budget as they are generally afterthoughts. Especially in certain theme leagues.
11/29/2013 11:38 AM
Here's my take on why one is acceptable and the other not. Should the sim place emphasis (or more emphasis) on additional factors (# of steals, speed)? Certainly. But after taking second or third, the 1/1 60 speed runner is no more likely to score on a single or fly out than a 0/20 60 speed runner. There's an advantage gained, but it's marginal and can be a detriment compared to drafting a same-price 2/8 80 player. The programming could be better, but is not ludicrous.

The first-and-third bunt was clearly programmed wrong. There is no allowance for the runner at third to hold; that should not only be possible, but should be the default result. Most first-and-third bunts with no H&R on should result in runners at second and third and an out. Without doing the research on RL, I'd guess that a result of bases loaded with no out on the play would be more likely than the runner at third scoring. For first-and-third with H&R on, there should be a mix of runs scoring, runners out at the plate on a missed bunt, and the occasional pickoff (with the runner at first moving to second). Has anyone seen a caught-stealing-home on a bunt attempt? I've played 40,000 Live games and don't recall one, and think I've seen 3-4 pickoffs at third. For some programming reason, IF in doesn't do a damned thing for the first-and-third bunt, though about 18 months ago they did fix a glitch that had ignored IF in for other squeeze bunts after I sent them examples of dreadfully slow runners scoring all the time on bunts when they were the only runner. They told me at the time they could only make simple fixes (which that happened to be), but that most of the code was too interwoven to mess around with.

The 1/1 SB draftee is taking advantage of a pricing anomaly, similar to grabbing players who normalize up for power and watching them hit 24 homers instead of the 12 they hit in RL, drafting catchers wih D- Field ratings because the sim takes that useless rating into account, or avoiding some players because their secondary-position D/D rating inexplicably boosts their cost.

If the 1/1 runners bother you, there is a way to defend against it — draft Yadier Molina. If the squeeze bunt bothers you, the only defense is to let those games sim.


11/30/2013 10:26 AM (edited)
if you think it's such a sin, why don't you post it in the rules of your theme league post?   What irks me is the rudeness and vicious attacks against the people who use it.  When someone is new and gets these irrational attacks, many quit this game forever.   What nonsense.  They think they did pay the money and they have seen squeeze bunts.  Back in the day with strat-o-matic if  you brought the infield in you knew that  you were risking a ground ball out turning into a hit. I suspect those who don't bring IF in know the same thing here.  I agree many here abuse the gentlemen's agreement and leave it back for pitchers and guys like Arky Vaughan to ground in to easy double plays.  That is not realistic either.  I'm facing Pedro Martinez, 1st and 3rd,  down 1-0 bottom of the eighth and bunt.  No I should just take the double play  loss like a man, while the infield is back.  silly. if you want more realistic, make your theme league rule no squeeze bunting with infield in.  
11/30/2013 10:59 AM (edited)
and one thing you are right about is mlb baseball squeeze bunts less than 1% of plate appearances.  But that is still one each 4-6 games.   A total failure of a squeeze is rare. (90% don't totally fail)  They at least move the other runner or don't get gunned down at the plate.   www.lookoutlanding.com/2013/8/19/4634526/the-squeeze-play-how-to-feel-about-it-spoiler-alert-not-good    So the above post that says when he tracked it on here at 60% may be REALISTIC.  Because when I squeeze once or twice in  a live sim season I get ripped and harassed for weeks.  Hmmm...so I think they just want to half pay attention and not get burned for infield back.  So they win more games by easy double plays that are not realistic.  Maybe sim has the right results considering all the times infield is back...did you ever think of that?  
12/2/2013 10:23 AM
the one thing that may be off is infield in and runs scoring from pitcher's squeeze.  But not bunting with infield back is not realistic.   p.p.p.s.   and you don't see all of  the failures as the opponent many times.  Some results are player is caught stealing home,  player grounds out..player is cut down at the plate on  a ground out etc with no mention of squeeze.
12/2/2013 12:18 PM
I cant stand the squeeze and personally "take the double play and loss like a man" ...but i totally agree on your more important point sjh...ive been here for 8 years and have seen very little growth in LIVE...is is because of the programming? Possibly but the real reason in my opinion is the cyber bullying that goes on. personally i laugh when i have been berated for various reasons while playing one of those idiots who realize they can say anything because i cant find them and physically retaliate. (well i could but thats just time and energy im not wiling to waste) i just remember that these idiots are most likely living in moms basement and thus is thier only form of enterfainment..
12/4/2013 12:50 PM
yes sox, we know that but newbies figure why put up with it.  thx for your comments.
12/4/2013 1:50 PM
Posted by soxyanks12 on 12/2/2013 12:18:00 PM (view original):
I cant stand the squeeze and personally "take the double play and loss like a man" ...but i totally agree on your more important point sjh...ive been here for 8 years and have seen very little growth in LIVE...is is because of the programming? Possibly but the real reason in my opinion is the cyber bullying that goes on. personally i laugh when i have been berated for various reasons while playing one of those idiots who realize they can say anything because i cant find them and physically retaliate. (well i could but thats just time and energy im not wiling to waste) i just remember that these idiots are most likely living in moms basement and thus is thier only form of enterfainment..
What a great attitude.
12/4/2013 5:36 PM
??? sounds like some one who doesn't like bullying.  yep, it is a great attitude.
12/4/2013 6:00 PM
******** about squeeze bunts in a make-believe baseball game does not equal bullying

The notion that new players quit because someone didn't like a bunt is absurd. A newb who knows that it's worth pinch-hitting for his #3 slugger with a speedy player to bunt is not a new player, regardless of his user ID. A newb who squeezes with the pitcher or Belanger might be told about the programming flaw, if he does it against one of two or three players on the site.

There's plenty of real injustice in the world. This ain't that.
12/4/2013 8:06 PM
If WIS really cared about the problems here it could be fixed.
They have ratings for speed and arm. Why not have a bunter rating? It could be based on speed and amount of sac hits( that would at least be an indicator that a player was actually capable of pulling off a squeeze play which very few pitchers are) and the defense could act accordingly. I love the rare times a suicide squeeze works in real life baseball.
This would also make it possible to bunt for a hit like Rod Carew used to do. I may be wrong but I don't think this is an option the way the game is set up now.
I don't hate the squeeze play or bunting but it is a cheap run and fuxs up the game in its current state
12/4/2013 8:08 PM
as for bullying stand up and take it like an internet faceless avatar.
12/4/2013 9:04 PM
haha...we can handle it, i just know people are run off and this  thing isn't growing.
12/5/2013 1:23 AM
Posted by sjh0825 on 12/4/2013 5:36:00 PM (view original):
??? sounds like some one who doesn't like bullying.  yep, it is a great attitude.
It's really laughable to pay lip service to being "anti-bullying" but in the same paragraph suggest that everyone who disagrees with you lives in their mom's basement and imply that you'd love to fight them if you could.
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