All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Bernie or Edgar?
12/4/2013 2:45 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 2:42:00 PM (view original):
 
Bernie Williams  60%
Edgar Martinez  40%

Seems a lot of people must think Williams had a VERY MASSIVE edge in fielding.
Oh so WIS polls are decisive now? Because 57% would take Lofton over Williams.
12/4/2013 2:48 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 2:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 2:39:00 PM (view original):
You all are great at taking a decent argument/conversation and making it terrible.
Sez the guy who argued park effects, incorrectly, for a couple of days.   
Where were you calling me out yesterday? I don't remember saying it yesterday, FWIW.

No, I mean the constant

"NO, A WEEK AGO YOU SAID THIS."
"NO, I DIDN'T, SHOW ME."
"YES, YOU DID, IM NOT GOING TO FIND IT."

12/4/2013 2:49 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 2:42:00 PM (view original):
 
Bernie Williams  60%
Edgar Martinez  40%

Seems a lot of people must think Williams had a VERY MASSIVE edge in fielding.
Yea, one could argue that EM was a much better hitter but still prefer the center fielder.  As I mentioned when the thread originated.  
12/4/2013 2:50 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 2:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 2:42:00 PM (view original):
 
Bernie Williams  60%
Edgar Martinez  40%

Seems a lot of people must think Williams had a VERY MASSIVE edge in fielding.
Yea, one could argue that EM was a much better hitter but still prefer the center fielder.  As I mentioned when the thread originated.  
That would be a reasonable position.

Saying that they were comparable offensively is not.

12/4/2013 2:57 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 2:48:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 2:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 2:39:00 PM (view original):
You all are great at taking a decent argument/conversation and making it terrible.
Sez the guy who argued park effects, incorrectly, for a couple of days.   
Where were you calling me out yesterday? I don't remember saying it yesterday, FWIW.

No, I mean the constant

"NO, A WEEK AGO YOU SAID THIS."
"NO, I DIDN'T, SHOW ME."
"YES, YOU DID, IM NOT GOING TO FIND IT."

I'm not BL.   I assumed you misspoke and let it go.    When you did it today, I felt the need to clarify.

And, no, I'm not digging back into yesterday's argument to show you where you said hitting in SEA was tougher than NYY. 

12/4/2013 2:59 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 2:44:00 PM (view original):
More likely that BL thinks 60% of the people voting here are MASSIVE fucktards.
I think that's a given.    Even those BW has 50% more votes.    Perhaps WAR math allows for a 50% +/- in results.
12/4/2013 3:00 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 1:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 1:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Critical thinking makes us appreciate Rick Monday more than we originally did.  When you don't think critically, you think "DER 2 ALL STAR GAMES HE BLEW." You're doing the opposite.  Someone suggests that Rick Monday was just as valuable in the 70s as Bernie was in the 90s and your response is essentially "you're a fucktard."
I believe that's correct.    Monday = Williams is fucktard area.
Why would that be fucktarded?
Even your beloved "WAR, ************!!!!" ***** all over Rick Monday in comparison to Bernie Williams.

Please explain why that is?
12/4/2013 3:02 PM
I'll be honest, I thought about it, and as I said, I can't really argue with anyone who prefers Bernie (re: tecs question), I think it's that close.  And I like what tec did - Edgar gets more HOF love, despite the fact that if you asked a lot of baseball people this question, some would prefer Bernie I'm sure.  I think the reason for that is - Edgar was one of the best hitters in the game.  I think if you're the best, or one of the best, at something in baseball while you played, you get HOF love.  Bernie was a very good center fielder, but he was not elite.  Edgar was an elite hitter.  Babbled a little bit there, but I think you can understand my point.

If you DON'T think that Edgar was a much better hitter than Bernie was, I don't know what else to say.  I don't look at "hits per plate appearance" as a good measurement.
12/4/2013 3:07 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 3:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 1:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 1:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Critical thinking makes us appreciate Rick Monday more than we originally did.  When you don't think critically, you think "DER 2 ALL STAR GAMES HE BLEW." You're doing the opposite.  Someone suggests that Rick Monday was just as valuable in the 70s as Bernie was in the 90s and your response is essentially "you're a fucktard."
I believe that's correct.    Monday = Williams is fucktard area.
Why would that be fucktarded?
Even your beloved "WAR, ************!!!!" ***** all over Rick Monday in comparison to Bernie Williams.

Please explain why that is?
Probably because "replacement level" wasn't as big of a drop off in the 70s as it was in the 90s?  That's a solid question.  Defensive metrics likes neither player.
12/4/2013 3:07 PM
He was more effective at the plate because he'd walk rather than make an out.   That's a good thing.     Pretending that there's nothing to be compared is borderline retarded.  That's my point.
12/4/2013 3:08 PM
Monday's highest WAR was 3.9  Bernie had a WAR at or above that 8 times.  Hmm...
12/4/2013 3:08 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 3:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 1:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 1:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Critical thinking makes us appreciate Rick Monday more than we originally did.  When you don't think critically, you think "DER 2 ALL STAR GAMES HE BLEW." You're doing the opposite.  Someone suggests that Rick Monday was just as valuable in the 70s as Bernie was in the 90s and your response is essentially "you're a fucktard."
I believe that's correct.    Monday = Williams is fucktard area.
Why would that be fucktarded?
Even your beloved "WAR, ************!!!!" ***** all over Rick Monday in comparison to Bernie Williams.

Please explain why that is?
So you'll accept WAR when it backs up your argument?

I haven't looked but I'm guessing it has to do with the lengths of their careers. WAR is cumulative and OPS+ is a rate stat.
12/4/2013 3:11 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 3:07:00 PM (view original):
He was more effective at the plate because he'd walk rather than make an out.   That's a good thing.     Pretending that there's nothing to be compared is borderline retarded.  That's my point.
It's really not comparable.  If a player got hit in the back 100 times, and batted .300, he's still a better hitter than the .250 guy, even if the .250 guy got more hits.  Does that make sense?
12/4/2013 3:14 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 3:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 3:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 1:32:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 1:31:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 12:21:00 PM (view original):
Critical thinking makes us appreciate Rick Monday more than we originally did.  When you don't think critically, you think "DER 2 ALL STAR GAMES HE BLEW." You're doing the opposite.  Someone suggests that Rick Monday was just as valuable in the 70s as Bernie was in the 90s and your response is essentially "you're a fucktard."
I believe that's correct.    Monday = Williams is fucktard area.
Why would that be fucktarded?
Even your beloved "WAR, ************!!!!" ***** all over Rick Monday in comparison to Bernie Williams.

Please explain why that is?
So you'll accept WAR when it backs up your argument?

I haven't looked but I'm guessing it has to do with the lengths of their careers. WAR is cumulative and OPS+ is a rate stat.
It appears Monday wasn't an everyday player like Bernie was.  Was he injury-prone?

Bernie averaged around 100 more PAs a year than Monday.
12/4/2013 3:14 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 3:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 3:07:00 PM (view original):
He was more effective at the plate because he'd walk rather than make an out.   That's a good thing.     Pretending that there's nothing to be compared is borderline retarded.  That's my point.
It's really not comparable.  If a player got hit in the back 100 times, and batted .300, he's still a better hitter than the .250 guy, even if the .250 guy got more hits.  Does that make sense?
What if he reaches on an error?  

Much like getting hit in the back, he has very little control over reaching via error.    Same result but one counts as an AB, one does not.
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