All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Bernie or Edgar?
12/4/2013 4:19 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2013 3:18:00 PM (view original):
EM walked a lot, which is a good thing.  His opportunity to get the hits is hurt because of that.  It doesn't mean he's not a better hitter than Bernie.  He's more likely to get a hit if you throw strikes to him, because he's a better hitter.
And also, back to this.
12/4/2013 4:24 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2013 4:19:00 PM (view original):
You probably underthought the problem.  How many .500 hitters have there been in MLB?   How many .400 hitters?   Which one is more likely to regress with more opportunities?  Which one is more likely to maintain/improve with more opportunities?

Truth is, we have no idea how either would have done given more chances.   Much like saying EM would have more hits if he didn't walk the extra time every 8 games.   He may have.   Or maybe not.   Either way, his OBP would come down because you can't top 1.000.
Huh?  The .500 hitter is better than the .400 hitter.  Or make it .350 compared to .300.  The guy with the better BA is better.  If he walks a lot, or gets hit in the back a lot more than the .300 hitter, and therefore can't accumulate enough hits to surpass the .300 hitter, it doesn't make him a worse hitter.  If anything, he probably walks a lot because he's a great hitter and pitchers pitch around him.
12/4/2013 4:26 PM
Are you saying that it's possible that he got strikes instead of getting walked once every 8 games, it's likely his BA/SLG would have regressed?  Why? 
12/4/2013 4:28 PM
Hahaha i think you're arguing the guy who got hit in the back 100 times easily could have gotten out those 100 times, despite batting .500 over 400 PAs.  That's retarded.
12/4/2013 5:46 PM
I'm just curious, is the argument whether Bernie was a BETTER baseball player than Edgar, or whether he was a MORE VALUABLE baseball player?

If the question is who would you rather have, I think everyone has made their decisions.
12/4/2013 6:50 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 12/4/2013 5:46:00 PM (view original):
I'm just curious, is the argument whether Bernie was a BETTER baseball player than Edgar, or whether he was a MORE VALUABLE baseball player?

If the question is who would you rather have, I think everyone has made their decisions.
6 of one...
12/4/2013 7:52 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 4:05:00 PM (view original):
Monday's effectiveness with the bat was about the same as Williams'. But Williams was able to do it longer so he had more offensive value.

But, it's worth noting that Monday's career WAR is closer to Williams' than Williams is to Martinez.
"Monday's effectiveness with the bat was about the same as Williams'".

Please explain the seasonal discrepancies in their respective oWAR values.  After all, oWAR is a fantastic way to measure a player's offensive value, correct?
12/4/2013 8:15 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 6:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 12/4/2013 5:46:00 PM (view original):
I'm just curious, is the argument whether Bernie was a BETTER baseball player than Edgar, or whether he was a MORE VALUABLE baseball player?

If the question is who would you rather have, I think everyone has made their decisions.
6 of one...
That sounds like something only someone who only understands baseball through the statistics might say...

Edgar Martinez was a better baseball player.  I would still rather have Bernie.
12/4/2013 8:22 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 7:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 4:05:00 PM (view original):
Monday's effectiveness with the bat was about the same as Williams'. But Williams was able to do it longer so he had more offensive value.

But, it's worth noting that Monday's career WAR is closer to Williams' than Williams is to Martinez.
"Monday's effectiveness with the bat was about the same as Williams'".

Please explain the seasonal discrepancies in their respective oWAR values.  After all, oWAR is a fantastic way to measure a player's offensive value, correct?
WAR is cumulative.
12/4/2013 8:23 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 12/4/2013 8:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 6:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 12/4/2013 5:46:00 PM (view original):
I'm just curious, is the argument whether Bernie was a BETTER baseball player than Edgar, or whether he was a MORE VALUABLE baseball player?

If the question is who would you rather have, I think everyone has made their decisions.
6 of one...
That sounds like something only someone who only understands baseball through the statistics might say...

Edgar Martinez was a better baseball player.  I would still rather have Bernie.
If a Edgar was better, he was more valuable.

12/4/2013 8:24 PM
The problem with OPS+ is that it undervalues OBP a bit.  The problem with oWAR is that the positional adjustment is factored in (instead of only looking at defensive position and quality with dWAR).  Also, OPS+ is a ratio stat while you can "compile" WAR.
12/4/2013 8:25 PM
Posted by ncmusician_7 on 12/4/2013 8:24:00 PM (view original):
The problem with OPS+ is that it undervalues OBP a bit.  The problem with oWAR is that the positional adjustment is factored in (instead of only looking at defensive position and quality with dWAR).  Also, OPS+ is a ratio stat while you can "compile" WAR.
True on all accounts.
12/4/2013 9:01 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 8:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 7:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 4:05:00 PM (view original):
Monday's effectiveness with the bat was about the same as Williams'. But Williams was able to do it longer so he had more offensive value.

But, it's worth noting that Monday's career WAR is closer to Williams' than Williams is to Martinez.
"Monday's effectiveness with the bat was about the same as Williams'".

Please explain the seasonal discrepancies in their respective oWAR values.  After all, oWAR is a fantastic way to measure a player's offensive value, correct?
WAR is cumulative.
What part of "seasonal" confused you?
12/4/2013 9:08 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 9:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 8:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2013 7:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 4:05:00 PM (view original):
Monday's effectiveness with the bat was about the same as Williams'. But Williams was able to do it longer so he had more offensive value.

But, it's worth noting that Monday's career WAR is closer to Williams' than Williams is to Martinez.
"Monday's effectiveness with the bat was about the same as Williams'".

Please explain the seasonal discrepancies in their respective oWAR values.  After all, oWAR is a fantastic way to measure a player's offensive value, correct?
WAR is cumulative.
What part of "seasonal" confused you?
What part of cumulative confuses you?

WAR accumulates during the season. It isn't a rate.
12/4/2013 9:13 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 8:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 12/4/2013 8:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2013 6:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 12/4/2013 5:46:00 PM (view original):
I'm just curious, is the argument whether Bernie was a BETTER baseball player than Edgar, or whether he was a MORE VALUABLE baseball player?

If the question is who would you rather have, I think everyone has made their decisions.
6 of one...
That sounds like something only someone who only understands baseball through the statistics might say...

Edgar Martinez was a better baseball player.  I would still rather have Bernie.
If a Edgar was better, he was more valuable.

There are all kinds of reasons why that isn't true.  But I would understand why your narrow-minded approach to the sport would tell you that it should be.
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