All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Bernie or Edgar?
12/5/2013 7:53 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2013 7:47:00 PM (view original):
I've said they're both very good and neither is worthy of the HOF.   However, some insist that EM is MASSIVELY better than BW.  Which is stupid. 
Offensively, Martinez was massively better than Williams.

That's a fact.
12/5/2013 7:57 PM
Yeah, that's retarded.  
12/5/2013 7:58 PM
Good counter argument.
12/5/2013 7:58 PM
But, nonetheless, enjoy your evening.   My games have simmed.   I'll respond to your dumbassery tomorrow.
12/5/2013 8:37 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2013 4:28:00 PM (view original):
Center field is one of the most important positions in the game.  A great defensive center fielder makes a great deal of difference to a poor defensive center fielder.  That's just common sense.  In the simplest of terms, if a great CF can get to a ball that a poor one can't, once a game, that's the difference of a hit a game.  162 hits.

That doesn't happen every game, but if it happens once every few games, it adds up.
I think ur overestimating the importance of CF defense and overestimating the difference between a great and a poor defensive CF in MLB.  It won't be anywhere near a hit difference every few games.
12/5/2013 8:52 PM
The CF covers the most ground of any defensive player on the field.  The difference between great and poor can be significant.
12/5/2013 9:36 PM
dahsdebater said "For that production he was paid under $3 million total.  You think you could find a guy to give you an 80 OPS+ in CF for that money?  Doubtful to me..." Why would you pay a player $3M+ if he will have a batting line along the lines of .214/.268/.330?  U might as well bring someone up from AAA.
12/5/2013 11:32 PM (edited)
They were both really good players and I won't say that the "better" player isn't important because obviously it matters but for the most part it is not about who was the better player or which position is more important and no,matter how much info you collect it isn't about OPS, WAR, or any other stat either. The question is how they would fit with your team. If I have Griffey in CF I want a Right handed hitting Martinez. If I don't have that type of CF then I want Williams. Baseball is about putting the right type of team together. The Big Red Machine traded Lee May for Morgan, etc...They had power but they also became a speed team on turf and the rest is history. The Cards went to 3 world series in the 80's with good pitching, speed and defense. I think Jeter is better than Ozzie but for those Cardinal teams I would take Ozzie over Jeter because they needed that type of special D.
The question I would ask for both of these players is if you were to do a 30 team draft for the last 50 years do you think either one of these players gets picked in the first 3 rounds? I would say no and neither one of these players is a HOF.
12/6/2013 12:23 AM
Bernie Williams, a 125 OPS+. 297/.381/.477. Had a sweet 7 year stretch where he had an OPS over .900 and a BA over .300.

Awesome player, and I'd probably want him on the roster more than most DHs out there, perhaps even EM.

That said, Edgar was clearly the superior bat. a 147 OPS+ for his career, which is far greater than Bernie's output. Had a 7 year stretch with OPS above .966, and 5 of those seasons with an over 1.000 OPS. .312/.418/.515 career slash line.


12/6/2013 7:51 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2013 7:58:00 PM (view original):
Good counter argument.
No, it was a GREAT counter argument.   Top 8753 of all-time.
12/6/2013 7:54 AM
Anyway, what hasn't already been said?    Your shining star is OPS+.   I question any stat that says Rick Monday, Bernie Williams and Adam Dunn were equally productive.   I question it even further when it says that Robin Yount and Dave Kingman had similar production.   I've claimed, many times, that Martinez was far more adept at walking but not much else.  I backed it up by showing that, per PA, Martinez had one more hit, six of them doubles, 2 of them homers but he hit three less triples.   You don't like that.

So what "counter argument" is left?
12/6/2013 8:06 AM
MASSIVE
12/6/2013 8:18 AM
Yeah, that's retarded. 
12/6/2013 8:31 AM
Would you say it's MASSIVELY retarded?
12/6/2013 9:06 AM
That's seems a bit excessive.  Slightly retarded would be more appropriate.
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