All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Cano a Mariner
12/6/2013 7:16 PM
I think I'd rather have Cano than Ellsbury & McCann for the same money. It's likely that by 2016 McCann can't play catcher anymore. The Yankees will still have Teixeira and Arod under contract, so that's 3 guys for two spots (1b & DH). Not a terrible problem to have but they will need a new SS, a new 2b, a new 3b, and several starting pitchers between then and now.

But I like the Ellsbury signing on its own.
12/6/2013 7:20 PM
The point is that TWO near-top players at two positions (especially catcher) makes the Yankees a better team than having ONE top player at one position. The Yanks need to improve at several areas, and they just eliminated two of them and only created one. Plus it'll be a helluva lot easier for them to get a 2nd baseman on the market in the next couple of years than it will be to get a top catcher AND a top centerfielder.
12/6/2013 7:25 PM
Posted by rsp777 on 12/6/2013 7:09:00 PM (view original):
I understand that point of view, but Ellsbury's two major injuries both came from CONTACT. It's not like the guy is out of shape or has bad knees or a brittle body. He got hurt badly (twice) playing hard. That doesn't make him injury-prone, just unlucky. He's in great shape and I just don't agree with your assessment of his impending decline. Cano will be FOURTY- FREAKING-TWO when his contract ends. Are you seriously going to tell me he's going to be worth 27 million a year when he's 40, 41 or 42??? Or that paying him 27 million a year then will somehow be better than paying Ellsbury 17 mill a year when he's 36 or 37. And getting McCann for five years with the spare change (LOL!) left over between the Ellsbury and Cano deals makes it a great trade off for the Yankees, who, again, need much more help than Cano alone could provide. McCann and Ellsbury in their lineup everyday for the next few years makes them a better team than they would be with just Cano.
The Mariners paying Cano $25m a season in 2021 or 2022 will probably not seem as painful at that time as it does today in 2013.  

It shouldn't be unimaginable that 8, 9, 10 years from now, $35m-$40m a year (or more) contracts will not be out of the question, as the past trend of ever-escalating contracts will likely continue.
12/6/2013 7:33 PM
Look, stop over-analyzing it. I just think that the Yankees are much better off with McCann and Ellsbury than Cano for exactly the same money. Plus, they pay it over a shorter term, which leaves them future flexibility. I think it's a major win for NY, plain and simple.
12/6/2013 7:36 PM
Posted by rsp777 on 12/6/2013 7:21:00 PM (view original):
The point is that TWO near-top players at two positions (especially catcher) makes the Yankees a better team than having ONE top player at one position. The Yanks need to improve at several areas, and they just eliminated two of them and only created one. Plus it'll be a helluva lot easier for them to get a 2nd baseman on the market in the next couple of years than it will be to get a top catcher AND a top centerfielder.
Eh, I'd still rather have Cano.

Let's say that Cano is a 7 win player, Ellsbury is a 5 win player, and McCann is a 2 win player. Those are reasonable ballparks for all of those guys.

Paying X for one 7 win player is better than paying X for a 5 and a 2 win player because you still have a roster spot open for Y production from another player.

So Cano + league average catcher is more productive than Ellsbury + McCann.
12/6/2013 7:41 PM
Posted by rsp777 on 12/6/2013 7:33:00 PM (view original):
Look, stop over-analyzing it. I just think that the Yankees are much better off with McCann and Ellsbury than Cano for exactly the same money. Plus, they pay it over a shorter term, which leaves them future flexibility. I think it's a major win for NY, plain and simple.
If you want to insist on bundling McCann and Ellsbury, then I'll agree that the Yankees are better off probably through 2017 or so (assuming Ellsbury stays healthy).  After that, Ellsbury will be an anchor for what he's getting paid while Cano will still be pounding the ball for a couple more seasons.
12/6/2013 8:16 PM
We shall see how it all plays out, but again, I think it's a major win for NY.

And as for your" X win player" analysis bad_luck, I just don't buy into those types of SABR-Stats. They remove all the intangibles and I think they, and the way you insist on using them as your "be-all end-all" for rating ballplayers, are borderline ridiculous. McCann will handle the Yanks pitchers, gives them solid offense and defense, is one of the top players at a position where it's hard to find (in your parlance) "replacement level" talent in the first place and is a leadership-type in the tradition of Yankee catchers through history. Your grading of him as a "2 win player" is hilarious to me, because he is the perfect example of a guy whose presence will not show up in your analytics or on any stat-sheet. Solid 2nd basemen are significantly easier to find than it is to find a catcher of McCann's skills.
12/6/2013 11:21 PM
Beltran to the Yanks takes them out of play for Choo. Go get him M's.
12/6/2013 11:28 PM
Posted by The Taint on 12/6/2013 11:21:00 PM (view original):
Beltran to the Yanks takes them out of play for Choo. Go get him M's.
I bet a lot of people here don't know this... we traded Shin Soo Choo for Ben Broussard in 2006...************* Ben Broussard... ****!!!
12/7/2013 12:14 AM
Posted by rsp777 on 12/6/2013 8:16:00 PM (view original):
We shall see how it all plays out, but again, I think it's a major win for NY.

And as for your" X win player" analysis bad_luck, I just don't buy into those types of SABR-Stats. They remove all the intangibles and I think they, and the way you insist on using them as your "be-all end-all" for rating ballplayers, are borderline ridiculous. McCann will handle the Yanks pitchers, gives them solid offense and defense, is one of the top players at a position where it's hard to find (in your parlance) "replacement level" talent in the first place and is a leadership-type in the tradition of Yankee catchers through history. Your grading of him as a "2 win player" is hilarious to me, because he is the perfect example of a guy whose presence will not show up in your analytics or on any stat-sheet. Solid 2nd basemen are significantly easier to find than it is to find a catcher of McCann's skills.
A) nothing is be all end all. It's just a rough approximation

B) Cano is significantly better than a "solid second baseman." Neil Walker and Jedd Gyrko are "solid second basemen." Cano is a superstar, more valuable and harder to replace than 99% of position players.
12/7/2013 1:00 AM (edited)
I don't think that's true. Especially at catcher. Robinson Cano is NOT a player that I can see hoisting a team on his back and carrying it. He's probably the best overall 2B in MLB, but "serviceable" 2B are relatively easy to come by. "Serviceable" catchers are not NEARLY as easy to find. Over half the teams in MLB struggle to get even average production out of their catchers offensively and more than half of those fifteen guys are below or FAR below average when it comes to defense, throwing arm and handling a staff. Those that are above average defensively are, for the most part, terrible at the stick. McCann has a lousy arm, but is an EXCELLENT handler of pitchers who you can pretty much pen in for .250/.350 with 20 homers in 120 games. That is worth an assload in comparison to other catchers across the board. The difference is what McCann will do to improve Yankee pitching and the leadership he will provide in the clubhouse. THAT will NOT show up in ANY sabermetric stat OR in any box score. And the guy is the closest thing NY has seen to Thurman Munson since the man hit the ground in his plane. You cannot "measure intangibles" with stats. McCann is "Mr. Intangible." Cano is FAR from Miggy Cabrera and Mike Trout. Sure, he's a great player, but I don't think a 25 homer, .300/.370, average defensive 2B is even close to being the kind of difference maker of Cabby or Trout. Thus I don't think replacing him as a Yank-Me will have as much effect on that team as will adding McCann, Ellsbury, and now, Beltran, will. NY is VERY much better now, and letting Cano walk was the key to the whole thing.
12/7/2013 12:57 AM
Posted by kcden on 12/6/2013 11:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by The Taint on 12/6/2013 11:21:00 PM (view original):
Beltran to the Yanks takes them out of play for Choo. Go get him M's.
I bet a lot of people here don't know this... we traded Shin Soo Choo for Ben Broussard in 2006...************* Ben Broussard... ****!!!
Don't forget about Asdrubal Cabrera for Eduardo Perez that same year!
12/7/2013 1:07 AM
What about Varitek and Lowe for HEATHCLIFF SLOCUMB... Seattle has GIVEN away SO many prospects that went on to great careers that it must make Mariner fans sick to their stomachs. They're like the Cavaliers of baseball...LOL!!!
12/7/2013 4:40 AM
Posted by kcden on 12/6/2013 11:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by The Taint on 12/6/2013 11:21:00 PM (view original):
Beltran to the Yanks takes them out of play for Choo. Go get him M's.
I bet a lot of people here don't know this... we traded Shin Soo Choo for Ben Broussard in 2006...************* Ben Broussard... ****!!!
we traded Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe for Healthcliff Slocumb....

we traded Adam Jones , Paul Tillman and 5 other guys for Erik Bedard.....thanks Bavasi

At one time we had David Ortiz too.

M.s have pulled some boner trades

12/7/2013 7:20 AM
Yanks are better off with Ellsbury/McCann(even though I'm not particularly fond of either signing) than Cano.  Not sure I get the Beltran signing as that leaves them with 5 OF.   I guess Soriano to DH makes sense but, if they're healthy/playing, Jeter/A-Rod are gonna need some DH days.  One of the problems they've had is too many DH.
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