All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > ESPN HOF ballot revealed.
1/9/2014 3:58 PM
Yeah, it's Gwynn.   He's in the HOF, deservedly so, and the other two are not.  Also deservedly so.

Throw out dWAR in any conversation.   No one likes it, no one trusts it.

So I guess we're left to debate the merits of baserunning WAR.   Admittedly, Raines created more runs on the basepaths.   But BW as a negative?   Can't see that.  That smells suspiciously like more dWAR bullshit.   Enlighten us.
1/9/2014 4:06 PM
It's actually Williams that doesn't belong.

I don't see why we need to throw out the defensive runs saved. It's not like these guys played in 1910. We have play by play data, the defensive stuff is a fairly accurate representation of what they did. And Williams was not a good defensive center fielder.

It looks like Williams was just a slightly below average base runner.

Raines created so much value on the base paths that he completely closes the offensive gap between him and Gwynn. Raines provided the overall value of a hall of famer. Williams did not.


1/9/2014 4:11 PM
You look at the SB/CS ratio for Bernie and it comes to light a little.  147 to 87 is not good.  
1/9/2014 5:40 PM
So baserunning WAR is SB/CS? 

We can throw it dWAR because everyone on this board agrees it's bullshit.   Mike Trout is the greatest CF ever his rookie year(despite being replaced defensively more than a few times) and **** last year.   It's inconsistent at best or just plain **** at worst.
1/9/2014 5:46 PM
HOF or not?

Ivan Rodriguez
Graig Nettles
Dwight Evans
Buddy Bell
Willie Randolph
1/9/2014 5:58 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/9/2014 5:40:00 PM (view original):
So baserunning WAR is SB/CS? 

We can throw it dWAR because everyone on this board agrees it's bullshit.   Mike Trout is the greatest CF ever his rookie year(despite being replaced defensively more than a few times) and **** last year.   It's inconsistent at best or just plain **** at worst.
I don't think UZR had him as the greatest CF ever. Just very good. Bourjos is probably one of just a couple people in all of baseball better at outfield defense than Trout.

And he wasn't **** in 2013, just above average, 3 runs above average to be exact.


1/9/2014 6:09 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/9/2014 5:46:00 PM (view original):
HOF or not?

Ivan Rodriguez
Graig Nettles
Dwight Evans
Buddy Bell
Willie Randolph
yes
probably not, there are very few modern 3b in the hall and the standard for the position is high
i'd probably vote for him, but he's borderline
see nettles
no

1/9/2014 6:11 PM
Yes
No
No
No
No
1/9/2014 6:14 PM
OK, all are within the "meaningless" range of WAR with Raines(and above Biggio).  I haven't checked but I'm sure WR was the only one who stole bases(I'm not sure he was very good at it).   So, in all likelihood, they were given huge boosts with dWAR.     So is dWAR useless or not?
1/9/2014 6:22 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/9/2014 6:14:00 PM (view original):
OK, all are within the "meaningless" range of WAR with Raines(and above Biggio).  I haven't checked but I'm sure WR was the only one who stole bases(I'm not sure he was very good at it).   So, in all likelihood, they were given huge boosts with dWAR.     So is dWAR useless or not?
"Meaningless" range of WAR?

If you don't buy into WAR, you don't have a meaningless range. It's all meaningless. 

1/9/2014 7:51 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/9/2014 5:46:00 PM (view original):
HOF or not?

Ivan Rodriguez
Graig Nettles
Dwight Evans
Buddy Bell
Willie Randolph
just my 2 cents, but I wouldn't let any of em in. in order of closeness:

evans, irod, bell, randolph, nettles
1/9/2014 9:34 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 1/9/2014 6:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/9/2014 5:46:00 PM (view original):
HOF or not?

Ivan Rodriguez
Graig Nettles
Dwight Evans
Buddy Bell
Willie Randolph
yes
probably not, there are very few modern 3b in the hall and the standard for the position is high
i'd probably vote for him, but he's borderline
see nettles
no

Dwight Evans?  Really?

Oh, never mind.  Kenny Lofton . . . Dwight Evans . . . and a cast of thousands.
1/9/2014 9:43 PM
Pudge yes. The rest no. I haven't looked at the numbers, but Pudge was an integral part to several Rangers playoff teams, the Florida Marlins 2003 World Series team and the beginning of the Tigers turnaround. I think that has to count for something.

Nettles was decent to good, but wasn't Brooks Robinson.

Evans a solid player who is underrated according to Bill James, but James didn't argue he belonged in the Hall.

Buddy Bell, pass.

Willie Randolph was another good player, but not great.


1/10/2014 2:21 AM
yes no no no no

ivan rodriguez maybe you have to watch games to see it not just read numbers in a book but that dude was great

1/10/2014 3:57 AM
Pudge is likely a first-ballot guy.  Not a great hitter for his career, but a good hitter, with some great seasons.  And the best defensive catcher of his generation by a wide margin.  People are bound to remember that.  Only PED allegations could keep him out.
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