All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > Frauds try to be psychologists, fail miserably
2/19/2014 5:42 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 4:51:00 PM (view original):
Thinking about IQ in terms of experience doesn't work either, because just "experience" doesn't raise a team to the level the IQ does, or conversely hurt one that has a lower IQ to that extent. 

I don't see what the alternative strategy to success would have been for my team...I guess I could have stayed in a bad offense for the sake of IQ, but 2 factors there -- 1, it's a bad offense, and 2, I had no way of knowing how much impact the change in IQ would have, and how long it would last. That's something that should be made more clear in the instructions/FAQ/etc. to the game, but I guess to veterans that wouldn't matter when you can just use it to keep newbs from being too good, too fast. Sure it's "a factor"...it's a helluva factor, much more than it should be. The best players, regardless of experience, are usually the ones that play the most on a basketball team, and rarely does that lack of experience cause real problems beyond the first few games. More common is that FR struggle later in the year due to hitting "the freshman wall", just wearing down under the increased pressure and physical demands. That's probably more common below the elite level these days because top players come into college basketball with so much experience.
Quote post by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 4:51:00 PM:
I could have stayed in a bad offense for the sake of IQ, but...I had no way of knowing how much impact the change in IQ would have, and how long it would last. That's something that should be made more clear in the instructions/FAQ/etc. to the game

From the "Player's Guide" under "Choosing a Team": "One final consideration may be the most important. If you have any preference on which offensive and defensive set you would like to run, it's crucial to confirm that the team you're acquiring runs those sets... while you have the power as the coach to change the offensive and defensive sets, this severely handicaps your team. Offensive and defensive IQ are crucial factors in the game, so by switching sets you virtually assure yourself at least one, and quite possibly two, very rough seasons..."
2/19/2014 5:45 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 3:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/19/2014 9:58:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 1:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 10:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/18/2014 5:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 3:48:00 PM (view original):
This thread jumped the shark a long time ago...

Needless to say, if ettaexpress continues to play while making such consistent grumblings at perceived anomalies, than more power to him/her (I assume a him, but it's wrong to assume).

The anomalies aren't anomalies. Anything that is mechanical can only produce mechanical results. Each game is won or lost based upon percentages. Any loss in particular can go against what "should" happen, just like any win. Get your team better. Ride out this season before it is better. Otherwise, simply learn to build your team to the system.
What do you mean by building your team to the system? I'm not going to build some team that would never work in real life jsut because it would work in the sim. That's just not interesting to me. 

This season is officially ridden out...though I'd say the wagon crashed several games ago. 9-18 is pretty much the worst year I've ever had in any sim ever, but I've also never played a sim that artificially retards your team for a whole season.
It's a bit useless to complain that the game isnt working right if you arent learning how the game is actually working. Depth charts only count for a small percentage of why you'll win or lose a game. Wonky substitution patterns are a small pct too. The key is recruiting. If your team is close in talent and you are missing certain aspects, it's difficukt to gameplan to a win. You can put your team into an optimal lineup, or what you think or tinker to an optimal lineup, or run matchups or double teams, but in the end it ends up being a talent and IQ and depth and your lineup-mix game. Looking at the pbp has some limited value for things like fouls in M2M or TO against a press. Or for if your late game settings are working like you want. It can't give you any satisfaction if you just want it to produce the results you expect. If the other team was more talented overall, and it was tight, than you gameplanned pretty well. If you're even and you're losing, than you need to keep tinkering. I would love it if this worked like 'real' basketball, but that assumes that i know what real basketball would result from a player to whom I only have numerical values for 12 different attributes in my Flex and M2M system.
Great, so I recruited well enough to have 4 guys that are better than team I inherited. What do you propose that I haven't learned? 

The pbp has very limited value, I'll definitely agree with you there. It's terrible. 

IQ is trash. My team would have been a lot better if it didn't exist, and indeed there are many here that have agreed with me that it's broken.

I can tell you what real basketball would result from a flex system in this day and age...you'd be mediocre. There's a reason no one plays the flex anymore.
I'm not sure if that's a dig on my flex offense that I run at D3 in Hoops Dynasty, but there are flex principles in almost every NBA offense. Also, Jerry Sloan ran the flex w/ Stockton and Malone, Rick Adelman runs a flex offense, plenty of colleges run a flex...it's an old offense, sure, but so is the triangle. I don't think that my offense is crazy awesome, but it is one of the options that we have here...I don't get to design my own offense on Hoops Dynasty.

IQ isn't trash. It's part of the player development strategy of the game. You can put very little stock in IQ, put more points into skill development, and change the way you're developing players. I put stock in IQ, put a little extra practice towards it. It's part of the strategy of getting your players ready. If you think it's trash, than I can only tell you that you're wrong, in a value sense. It's valuable to have good IQ. In real basketball terms, would you rather have a person who knows the offense that you're running, coach? Or, someone who doesn't?

What I propose that you haven't learned yet, overall, is to stop peeing into the wind with your complaints. There are a litany of imperfections with the Sim Engine that all of us have faced. The only problem is, well, everyone hits those same imperfections. The coaches who consistently get their teams into the tournament and consistently advance have figured out the players that they want, recruited well, put them together in the right lineup, developed them and have gone through the learning curve to succeed in HD. You haven't learned that complaining about how your top defensive player didn't shut down an offensive player in the PBP wasn't why your team didn't win the game. It didn't win because your team just isn't that talented. Your four freshman will be good when they're seniors, and you'll probably win a lot of the games you currently lose after 3+ seasons of developing those guys, researching the game, recruiting the next classes, etc.

As for now, you're peeing into the wind.
In the way the sim works, IQ is crap. There is no way in hell a motion offense takes a year and a half to learn to any level of proficiency. NONE. That is an out and out flaw. There is no other accurate characterization. It's wrong, and it should have been fixed a long time ago if some veterans had sacked up.

It ****** me off so ******* much that you veterans have this attitude of oh well I guess we'll just deal with the fact that the sim has all these flaws, rather than actually doing something about it (which seems the time has passed for that, but that doesn't absolve you of the failure). 

And then it ****** me off more when you dismiss me for having very valid complaints that you all should have addressed a long time ago. You're the ones paying for this. This is your game. Why the hell didn't you take ownership of that a long time or leave the damn thing to rot? 

You all talk about me and how I come off, how the hell do you think it comes off when you say "oh you're just peeing into the wind"? You're basically telling me that whatever I say is wrong or doesn't matter. 

And then you wonder why I get upset about that. I want to call you what I really think of you, but people here get huffy and report me and then asymmetric punishment ensues because veterans get preferential treatment. 
What are you talking about?

I'm definitely not saying what you're saying is wrong. What is the alternative? It's a game that I enjoy. I don't get my panties in a bunch about things that are out of my control. I enjoy the game, and furthermore, I'd like to know what you'd suggest to correct these "flaws". Write tickets to the administrator? Stop playing? Ok, I can do that, but I actually enjoy HD. My answer to why I personally didn't take ownership of correcting the "flaws" a long time ago, or left the damn thing to rot is because I enjoy the game. When I play Scrabble, I'm not writing the Scrabble company to ask why there aren't more Y's or E's, I play the game as it is.

What I mean when I say you're peeing into the wind is not to say that you're wrong, or that it doesn't matter at all. I am saying that you're wasting your time standing up to every veteran coach on the forum who has played this game through 20, 30, 40, 50 seasons plus. Are you a battle rapper by profession?

If you want to tell me what you really think of me, I won't get that huffy, but it'll reflect your limited idea of why I'm even engaging with you. I'm not trying to **** you off or call you stupid, I'm only telling you that you won't enjoy the game if you can't let go of complaints about the game. The game is imperfect, flawed, faulty, or whatever adjective you'd like to use. Your complaints about the game are YOUR interpretations of what needs to be changed. If you ask the veteran coaches, they all have little things they'd like to see changed.
2/19/2014 5:56 PM

game

 noun \'gam\

: a physical or mental activity or contest that has rules and that people do for pleasure

2/19/2014 6:01 PM
I bet that most folks would agree that there should be a handful or a couple of handfuls of freshmen with very high IQs - to permit the Melo or Durrant type situation.  That is separate from a broad critique of the existence of IQ as a significant factor
2/19/2014 7:06 PM
Posted by killbatman on 2/19/2014 5:24:00 PM (view original):
Thinking about IQ in terms of experience doesn't work either, because just "experience" doesn't raise a team to the level the IQ does, or conversely hurt one that has a lower IQ to that extent.
And to what extent is that exactly?  I mean you're talking like an authority on this and declaring IQ garbage, and you haven't even experienced a high IQ team yet to compare the results firsthand.  You've seen a small piece of the picture and declared the whole thing broken. 
I have experienced a high IQ team. Just haven't coached one.
2/19/2014 7:09 PM
Posted by artie40 on 2/19/2014 5:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 3:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/19/2014 9:58:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 1:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 10:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/18/2014 5:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 3:48:00 PM (view original):
This thread jumped the shark a long time ago...

Needless to say, if ettaexpress continues to play while making such consistent grumblings at perceived anomalies, than more power to him/her (I assume a him, but it's wrong to assume).

The anomalies aren't anomalies. Anything that is mechanical can only produce mechanical results. Each game is won or lost based upon percentages. Any loss in particular can go against what "should" happen, just like any win. Get your team better. Ride out this season before it is better. Otherwise, simply learn to build your team to the system.
What do you mean by building your team to the system? I'm not going to build some team that would never work in real life jsut because it would work in the sim. That's just not interesting to me. 

This season is officially ridden out...though I'd say the wagon crashed several games ago. 9-18 is pretty much the worst year I've ever had in any sim ever, but I've also never played a sim that artificially retards your team for a whole season.
It's a bit useless to complain that the game isnt working right if you arent learning how the game is actually working. Depth charts only count for a small percentage of why you'll win or lose a game. Wonky substitution patterns are a small pct too. The key is recruiting. If your team is close in talent and you are missing certain aspects, it's difficukt to gameplan to a win. You can put your team into an optimal lineup, or what you think or tinker to an optimal lineup, or run matchups or double teams, but in the end it ends up being a talent and IQ and depth and your lineup-mix game. Looking at the pbp has some limited value for things like fouls in M2M or TO against a press. Or for if your late game settings are working like you want. It can't give you any satisfaction if you just want it to produce the results you expect. If the other team was more talented overall, and it was tight, than you gameplanned pretty well. If you're even and you're losing, than you need to keep tinkering. I would love it if this worked like 'real' basketball, but that assumes that i know what real basketball would result from a player to whom I only have numerical values for 12 different attributes in my Flex and M2M system.
Great, so I recruited well enough to have 4 guys that are better than team I inherited. What do you propose that I haven't learned? 

The pbp has very limited value, I'll definitely agree with you there. It's terrible. 

IQ is trash. My team would have been a lot better if it didn't exist, and indeed there are many here that have agreed with me that it's broken.

I can tell you what real basketball would result from a flex system in this day and age...you'd be mediocre. There's a reason no one plays the flex anymore.
I'm not sure if that's a dig on my flex offense that I run at D3 in Hoops Dynasty, but there are flex principles in almost every NBA offense. Also, Jerry Sloan ran the flex w/ Stockton and Malone, Rick Adelman runs a flex offense, plenty of colleges run a flex...it's an old offense, sure, but so is the triangle. I don't think that my offense is crazy awesome, but it is one of the options that we have here...I don't get to design my own offense on Hoops Dynasty.

IQ isn't trash. It's part of the player development strategy of the game. You can put very little stock in IQ, put more points into skill development, and change the way you're developing players. I put stock in IQ, put a little extra practice towards it. It's part of the strategy of getting your players ready. If you think it's trash, than I can only tell you that you're wrong, in a value sense. It's valuable to have good IQ. In real basketball terms, would you rather have a person who knows the offense that you're running, coach? Or, someone who doesn't?

What I propose that you haven't learned yet, overall, is to stop peeing into the wind with your complaints. There are a litany of imperfections with the Sim Engine that all of us have faced. The only problem is, well, everyone hits those same imperfections. The coaches who consistently get their teams into the tournament and consistently advance have figured out the players that they want, recruited well, put them together in the right lineup, developed them and have gone through the learning curve to succeed in HD. You haven't learned that complaining about how your top defensive player didn't shut down an offensive player in the PBP wasn't why your team didn't win the game. It didn't win because your team just isn't that talented. Your four freshman will be good when they're seniors, and you'll probably win a lot of the games you currently lose after 3+ seasons of developing those guys, researching the game, recruiting the next classes, etc.

As for now, you're peeing into the wind.
In the way the sim works, IQ is crap. There is no way in hell a motion offense takes a year and a half to learn to any level of proficiency. NONE. That is an out and out flaw. There is no other accurate characterization. It's wrong, and it should have been fixed a long time ago if some veterans had sacked up.

It ****** me off so ******* much that you veterans have this attitude of oh well I guess we'll just deal with the fact that the sim has all these flaws, rather than actually doing something about it (which seems the time has passed for that, but that doesn't absolve you of the failure). 

And then it ****** me off more when you dismiss me for having very valid complaints that you all should have addressed a long time ago. You're the ones paying for this. This is your game. Why the hell didn't you take ownership of that a long time or leave the damn thing to rot? 

You all talk about me and how I come off, how the hell do you think it comes off when you say "oh you're just peeing into the wind"? You're basically telling me that whatever I say is wrong or doesn't matter. 

And then you wonder why I get upset about that. I want to call you what I really think of you, but people here get huffy and report me and then asymmetric punishment ensues because veterans get preferential treatment. 
What are you talking about?

I'm definitely not saying what you're saying is wrong. What is the alternative? It's a game that I enjoy. I don't get my panties in a bunch about things that are out of my control. I enjoy the game, and furthermore, I'd like to know what you'd suggest to correct these "flaws". Write tickets to the administrator? Stop playing? Ok, I can do that, but I actually enjoy HD. My answer to why I personally didn't take ownership of correcting the "flaws" a long time ago, or left the damn thing to rot is because I enjoy the game. When I play Scrabble, I'm not writing the Scrabble company to ask why there aren't more Y's or E's, I play the game as it is.

What I mean when I say you're peeing into the wind is not to say that you're wrong, or that it doesn't matter at all. I am saying that you're wasting your time standing up to every veteran coach on the forum who has played this game through 20, 30, 40, 50 seasons plus. Are you a battle rapper by profession?

If you want to tell me what you really think of me, I won't get that huffy, but it'll reflect your limited idea of why I'm even engaging with you. I'm not trying to **** you off or call you stupid, I'm only telling you that you won't enjoy the game if you can't let go of complaints about the game. The game is imperfect, flawed, faulty, or whatever adjective you'd like to use. Your complaints about the game are YOUR interpretations of what needs to be changed. If you ask the veteran coaches, they all have little things they'd like to see changed.
You're just daft if you dare to criticize Scrabble! Scrabble is an amazingly awesome game and I'll not hear another bad word against it! :)

Oh man I wish I was a battle rapper. That would be awesome, and I'd probably get on youtube.

Whether or not I complain about the game really won't affect whether or not I enjoy it or not. It'll just affect whether or not you hear about it. So is this about me, or about you? 
2/19/2014 7:11 PM
Posted by mamxet on 2/19/2014 6:01:00 PM (view original):
I bet that most folks would agree that there should be a handful or a couple of handfuls of freshmen with very high IQs - to permit the Melo or Durrant type situation.  That is separate from a broad critique of the existence of IQ as a significant factor
Why stop there? There are plenty of smart kids in particular that go D3.

I've said before that there aren't enough smart kids in the D3 recruiting pool. I guess this is just another manifestation of it. 
2/19/2014 7:18 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 7:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/19/2014 5:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 3:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/19/2014 9:58:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 1:50:00 AM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 10:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/18/2014 5:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by artie40 on 2/18/2014 3:48:00 PM (view original):
This thread jumped the shark a long time ago...

Needless to say, if ettaexpress continues to play while making such consistent grumblings at perceived anomalies, than more power to him/her (I assume a him, but it's wrong to assume).

The anomalies aren't anomalies. Anything that is mechanical can only produce mechanical results. Each game is won or lost based upon percentages. Any loss in particular can go against what "should" happen, just like any win. Get your team better. Ride out this season before it is better. Otherwise, simply learn to build your team to the system.
What do you mean by building your team to the system? I'm not going to build some team that would never work in real life jsut because it would work in the sim. That's just not interesting to me. 

This season is officially ridden out...though I'd say the wagon crashed several games ago. 9-18 is pretty much the worst year I've ever had in any sim ever, but I've also never played a sim that artificially retards your team for a whole season.
It's a bit useless to complain that the game isnt working right if you arent learning how the game is actually working. Depth charts only count for a small percentage of why you'll win or lose a game. Wonky substitution patterns are a small pct too. The key is recruiting. If your team is close in talent and you are missing certain aspects, it's difficukt to gameplan to a win. You can put your team into an optimal lineup, or what you think or tinker to an optimal lineup, or run matchups or double teams, but in the end it ends up being a talent and IQ and depth and your lineup-mix game. Looking at the pbp has some limited value for things like fouls in M2M or TO against a press. Or for if your late game settings are working like you want. It can't give you any satisfaction if you just want it to produce the results you expect. If the other team was more talented overall, and it was tight, than you gameplanned pretty well. If you're even and you're losing, than you need to keep tinkering. I would love it if this worked like 'real' basketball, but that assumes that i know what real basketball would result from a player to whom I only have numerical values for 12 different attributes in my Flex and M2M system.
Great, so I recruited well enough to have 4 guys that are better than team I inherited. What do you propose that I haven't learned? 

The pbp has very limited value, I'll definitely agree with you there. It's terrible. 

IQ is trash. My team would have been a lot better if it didn't exist, and indeed there are many here that have agreed with me that it's broken.

I can tell you what real basketball would result from a flex system in this day and age...you'd be mediocre. There's a reason no one plays the flex anymore.
I'm not sure if that's a dig on my flex offense that I run at D3 in Hoops Dynasty, but there are flex principles in almost every NBA offense. Also, Jerry Sloan ran the flex w/ Stockton and Malone, Rick Adelman runs a flex offense, plenty of colleges run a flex...it's an old offense, sure, but so is the triangle. I don't think that my offense is crazy awesome, but it is one of the options that we have here...I don't get to design my own offense on Hoops Dynasty.

IQ isn't trash. It's part of the player development strategy of the game. You can put very little stock in IQ, put more points into skill development, and change the way you're developing players. I put stock in IQ, put a little extra practice towards it. It's part of the strategy of getting your players ready. If you think it's trash, than I can only tell you that you're wrong, in a value sense. It's valuable to have good IQ. In real basketball terms, would you rather have a person who knows the offense that you're running, coach? Or, someone who doesn't?

What I propose that you haven't learned yet, overall, is to stop peeing into the wind with your complaints. There are a litany of imperfections with the Sim Engine that all of us have faced. The only problem is, well, everyone hits those same imperfections. The coaches who consistently get their teams into the tournament and consistently advance have figured out the players that they want, recruited well, put them together in the right lineup, developed them and have gone through the learning curve to succeed in HD. You haven't learned that complaining about how your top defensive player didn't shut down an offensive player in the PBP wasn't why your team didn't win the game. It didn't win because your team just isn't that talented. Your four freshman will be good when they're seniors, and you'll probably win a lot of the games you currently lose after 3+ seasons of developing those guys, researching the game, recruiting the next classes, etc.

As for now, you're peeing into the wind.
In the way the sim works, IQ is crap. There is no way in hell a motion offense takes a year and a half to learn to any level of proficiency. NONE. That is an out and out flaw. There is no other accurate characterization. It's wrong, and it should have been fixed a long time ago if some veterans had sacked up.

It ****** me off so ******* much that you veterans have this attitude of oh well I guess we'll just deal with the fact that the sim has all these flaws, rather than actually doing something about it (which seems the time has passed for that, but that doesn't absolve you of the failure). 

And then it ****** me off more when you dismiss me for having very valid complaints that you all should have addressed a long time ago. You're the ones paying for this. This is your game. Why the hell didn't you take ownership of that a long time or leave the damn thing to rot? 

You all talk about me and how I come off, how the hell do you think it comes off when you say "oh you're just peeing into the wind"? You're basically telling me that whatever I say is wrong or doesn't matter. 

And then you wonder why I get upset about that. I want to call you what I really think of you, but people here get huffy and report me and then asymmetric punishment ensues because veterans get preferential treatment. 
What are you talking about?

I'm definitely not saying what you're saying is wrong. What is the alternative? It's a game that I enjoy. I don't get my panties in a bunch about things that are out of my control. I enjoy the game, and furthermore, I'd like to know what you'd suggest to correct these "flaws". Write tickets to the administrator? Stop playing? Ok, I can do that, but I actually enjoy HD. My answer to why I personally didn't take ownership of correcting the "flaws" a long time ago, or left the damn thing to rot is because I enjoy the game. When I play Scrabble, I'm not writing the Scrabble company to ask why there aren't more Y's or E's, I play the game as it is.

What I mean when I say you're peeing into the wind is not to say that you're wrong, or that it doesn't matter at all. I am saying that you're wasting your time standing up to every veteran coach on the forum who has played this game through 20, 30, 40, 50 seasons plus. Are you a battle rapper by profession?

If you want to tell me what you really think of me, I won't get that huffy, but it'll reflect your limited idea of why I'm even engaging with you. I'm not trying to **** you off or call you stupid, I'm only telling you that you won't enjoy the game if you can't let go of complaints about the game. The game is imperfect, flawed, faulty, or whatever adjective you'd like to use. Your complaints about the game are YOUR interpretations of what needs to be changed. If you ask the veteran coaches, they all have little things they'd like to see changed.
You're just daft if you dare to criticize Scrabble! Scrabble is an amazingly awesome game and I'll not hear another bad word against it! :)

Oh man I wish I was a battle rapper. That would be awesome, and I'd probably get on youtube.

Whether or not I complain about the game really won't affect whether or not I enjoy it or not. It'll just affect whether or not you hear about it. So is this about me, or about you? 
Finally, we have something we can agree on entirely. Scrabble is one of the best games ever.
2/19/2014 7:51 PM
I'm not sure why I did it to myself, but I just read this entire thread. What a beating. I can't imagine why the OP takes so much guff... [rollseyes]
2/19/2014 8:24 PM
Sadly, I am not Big Bear.
2/19/2014 9:58 PM
Scrabble rules. There is definitely a reason why i mentioned scrabble cuz itz mah fave. Hoops Dynasty is a co-fave so it could be about me, etta, but i'm only engaged in a convo with you because you obviously give a rip about HD. I dont want you to hate the imperfections of the game and quit before you start enjoying it.
2/19/2014 9:59 PM
I love battle rapping. My style is clean. So, imma be called clean stylez
This post has a rating of , which is below the default threshold.
2/19/2014 10:56 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 10:24:00 PM (view original):
Too late, artie. I already hate the imperfections of the game. I don't really give that much of a rip excepting that it annoys the crap out of me that dumb stuff keeps me from being better, and there's not a thing I can do about it.
thats not a fair statement - you decided to change offense and defense - you made a choice - you have said that you wont recruit for a system in a way that is not consistent with your vision of how the SIM ought to work.  There are plenty of things you can do about it - you just choose not to do them.  That is fine, it is your choice.
2/19/2014 10:58 PM
Posted by ettaexpress on 2/19/2014 10:24:00 PM (view original):
Too late, artie. I already hate the imperfections of the game. I don't really give that much of a rip excepting that it annoys the crap out of me that dumb stuff keeps me from being better, and there's not a thing I can do about it.
There surely is something you can do about it. You can play the game in front of you instead of the one you imagine. That's all it would take.
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