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4/6/2014 4:08 PM

1.      Pete Rose 4,256

2.      Ty Cobb 4,189

3.      Hank Aaron 3,771     

4.      Stan Musial 3,630

5.      Tris Speaker 3,514

6.      Cap Anson 3,435

7.      Honus Wagner 3,420

8.      Carl Yastrzemski 3,419

9.      Derek Jeter 3,320

10.  Paul Molitor 3,319

 

4/6/2014 4:36 PM
"Past The Diving" is 9th in hits, but only 29th in total bases.  Still time to catch Chipper, Dawson and Manny?
4/6/2014 5:00 PM
Mickey Mantle once said "If I had had a career hitting singles like Pete Rose did I would have worn a skirt". 

Was Pete Rose Mickey Mantle? No. 

Did Ty Cobb hit as many home runs as Hank Aaron?  No. 

Did Willie Mays pitch as well as Babe Ruth? WTFDIK?
4/6/2014 5:09 PM
 A less oblique answer to crazystengel's question:

To reach Chipper Jones he now only needs 12 more bases. I am pretty sure he will have that in a short time. 

To reach Andre Dawson he needs 44 bases. He might get those with 11 home runs which I think all would admit is not out of the question for someone who hit 20 postsason home runs. But even if he does it with singles and doubles it will happen in the next month. 

To reach Manny Ramirez' total he need 83 bases. I really don't think there is any doubt that will happen as well and well before the end of the season. 8 bases more after that and he is tied with Reggie Jackson. 

If Jeter can get another 141 bases this season he will reach the total of Ted Williams (yes that great no-hit, good glove outfielder, the "Red Sox Clipper"). 

That is admittedly a tall order. But two seasons ago - just 2 seasons ago in 2012 he led the league in hits with 212. So I think there is time to pass Ted Williams. 

He had 293 total bases in 2012, and if he were able to do that this year - I am not saying I believe it likely given the whole missed year with an injury at this stage of his career, but if he did he would tie Mel Ott in career total bases and be only 3 behind George Brett and 19 behind Lou Gehrig. 
4/6/2014 5:14 PM (edited)
But then someone has probably written "Lou Gehrig is ONLY 17th on the all-time total bases list". 


Some players who are behind Derek Jeter on the career Total Bases list: 

Robin Yount

Sammy Sosa 

Al Simmons

Ernie Banks

Rogers Hornsby (!)

Jim Thome

Cap Anson

Rickey Henderson (who only played like 30 superstar years, so it must be just that Jeter hit so many singles for more seasons right?)

Mickey Mantle (!!!)

Vladimir Guerrero

Roberto Clemente 

Nap Lajoie

Mke Schmidt (!!)

Albert Pujols (!!)

Eddie Mathews (!!)

Eddie Collins 

Lou Brock

etc. etc. 






4/6/2014 5:38 PM
Wade Boggs

Harmon Killebrew

Carlton Fisk

Joe Morgan

Charlie Gehringer

Frankie Frisch (another good hitting IF who played forever)



Rod Carew

Joe Dimaggio 

David Ortiz (Nyaa nyaa nyaa nyaa nyaa nyaa !)

Ryne Sandberg

Tim Raines (!!!)

Mke Piazza

Ron Santo 

Jim Bottomley

Edgar Martinez 

Andrew Jones

Mark McGwire (!!!!!) 



Johnny Bench 

Yogi Berra

Ichiro Suzuki

Joe Torre 

Willie Keeler

Gary Carter

 

Kirby Puckett

and finally let's include (since I grow tired of this)
 
three good hitting shortstops: 

Joe Cronin

Luke Appling 

and recent Hall of Famer (and deservedly so) 

Barry Larkin whose total of 3,527 total bases leaves him  behind Jeter's total of  4,473 bases by a mere 946 bases. Or a little over 3 seasons for Derek Jeter. 

The most total bases I can find for Tim Raines in a season is 279, or 14 fewer than Jeter had in 2012.  Jeter's highest total for a season was 346 total bases in 1999, or 13 years before he had 14 more than Tim Raines ever had. 

Larkin's highest TB total was 293 in 1996. 

Joe Morgan's highest TB total ever was 284 in 1973. 

Wade Boggs: 324 in 1987. Boggs had 312 in 1985, but no other season where he had as high as 293, the total bases by Jeter two years ago. And he never had as many as Jeter had in 1999. 

Carlton Fisk, a power hitter had 279 bases in 1977, his highest ever, or 14 fewer than Jeter had in the next to last full season of his career, and 67 fewer than Jeter had in 1999. That is a difference equal to more than 16 home runs. 


Mike Schmidt has 342 total bases in 1980, that was his highest total.

The most Rickey Henderson ever had was 285 or 8 fewer than Jeter had in his next to last full season (since he essentially missed last season with injuried), 2012, and 61 fewer than Jeter had in 1999. In Henderson's third to last season (equivalent to Jeter's 2012) he had 133 total bases in 465 PA, that was 2001. 

Yes, a power hitter like Albert Pujols often had more than 346 total bases in a year, so ok, Jeter did not hit 40 home runs a year like Hank Aaron or Albert Pujols, or whatever. That goes without saying. But neither did Pete Rose, who had 321 total bases in 1969 his most ever, or 25 fewer than Jeter's highest total and who in the last season in which he had at least 500 PA, 1985, had a whopping 129 total bases. 

Jeter, what a slacker.


 



4/6/2014 5:43 PM
addendum: (I believe in leaving no dead horse unbeaten !): 

To put the last Pete Rose comment in context, Rose had a little over 500 PA in 1985, his next to last season. He had 129 total bases. Double that number and you have 258 TB but in 1,000 PA. 

Jeter, in 2012 when he led the league in hits, did, yes indeed have a lot of PA (this used to be considered a good thing - see Gehrig, Lou), - 704 and had that 293 total bases. 


So even if you give Rose in his next to last season 300 PA more than Jeter had in 2012, more or less the same stage of each's career, you get 35 fewer total bases on the year. 


4/6/2014 8:27 PM
All that, and "Past The Diving" is still a very respectable 161st in career OBP, 431st in career SLG and 263rd in career OPS!

I like "Past the Diving" -- he's had a good long career with a successful team, he's a first ballot Hall of Famer, but people do tend to overrate him a bit.  Can we agree on that?  Probably not!
4/6/2014 9:09 PM
He is tied with DAvid Ortiz for career OBP, ahead of Mike Schmidt, Nap Lajoie, Barry Larkin, Alvin Dark, Al Simmons, Duke Snider, Carl Yastrzemski, Chuck Klein, Dick Allen, Gavvy Cravath, Mike Piazza, Eddie Mathews, Pete Rose (!), Harmon Killebrew, Hank Aaron and Pete Runnells to name a few. 

OPS is kind of a silly composite stat since it will either reflect high OBP or High SLG and so his being behind sluggers whom he has a better OBP than in OPS just means that comparing him, or Pete Rose to Babe Ruth or Hank Aaron for slugging percentage is sort of ridiculous. 

But over their careers, for total bases in a good season and for LIFETIME OBP Derek Jeter was a better bet to have at the plate than Pete f...ing Rose ! 


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4/7/2014 4:06 AM
Now, about the (yes, boogerlips I am ignoring you) idea that Jeter is "over-rated" as crazystengel suggests: 

How many MVP Awards did he win in his career? 

In 1995, the year Jeter first came up to the majors, Barry Larkin, a great player to be sure, won the MVP award - he hit .319 that year with 15 homers and a .394 OBP. 

The following year, his rookie year (and he did win ROY in 1996) Derek Jeter .314 10 home runs and a .370 OBP. 

In 1999 Jeter hit .349 24 HR and an OBP of .438 - and came in 6th in the MVP voting. Ivan Rodriguez won it that year. Really? Derek Jeter was not as valuable in 1999 as Larkin in '95 or Ivan Rodriguez in '99? 


In 2002, Miguel Tejada, another SS won the AL MVP with an average of .308 34 HR and a .354 OBP. That same year Jeter hit .297 18 HR and had a .373 OBP and no MVP votes. 

In 2006, Justin Morneau won the AL MVP with .321 34 HR and an OBP of .375. That year Jeter came in second with .343 14 HR and an OBP of .417. 



Anyone really think Juan Gonzalez and Sammy Sosa were more valuable than Derek Jeter in 1998? Did they hit a LOT more home runs (or rather did some chemical hit a lot more HRs?) yes. 

Did their teams win sh...t? no. 


Dustin Pedroia won the MVP in 2008. He hit .326 17 home runs and had an OBP of .493 which is pretty awesome. Let's say without debate that his MVP award was merited and admit that even Jeter (Mr. career OBP higher than Pete Rose's) never got within 50 points of .493 OBP. 

But Jeter had years that were pretty comparable otherwise and never won a single MVP award. though Pete Rose won one. 

I would say that is does not reflect being "over-rated". 

And remember his postseason numbers:  734 PA  .308 avg. 20 HR .374 OBP in the postseason. 

Last thing: about Jeter playing in a time of inflated offensive numbers - the normalization for the steroid era should not be calculated as we calculate say 1894 or the 1930s or reverse normalize pitching era like the Deadball era or 1968. 

The 1990s numbers are inflated OVERALL because of a number of big hitters using steroids and a pretty wide diffusion of good hitters using steroids who inflated the overall numbers. Not because the fences came in or the mound was lowered or the ball wound tigher for EVERYONE. 

That means that strong hitting performance by non-steroid takers is MORE  not less impressive while we should realize that many players at the time were - yes - UNDER-rated because A-Rod, Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, etc. were taking drugs to enhance performance. 

Jeter, in other words, was relatively better in that period (though this does not follow per se for the rest of baseball history in itself) than his numbers indicated because he had to compete with big sluggers wound up by steroids. 

I rest my case. 



4/7/2014 4:47 AM
I wonder what the detractors would be saying if Jeter had been on their favorite team?   Granted...he does get more than his share of press...but is that his fault?  He carries himself with dignity and professionalism and is respected throughout the league.  
4/7/2014 8:47 AM
If Dustin Pedroia had had an OBP of .493... then, wow! But that was his slugging percentage. 

I'm glad The Laser Show won that MVP, but I have to admit that Jeter did have a higher slugging percentage in 1999, his one year he slugged above .500.
4/7/2014 11:10 AM
Posted by mensu1954 on 4/7/2014 4:47:00 AM (view original):
I wonder what the detractors would be saying if Jeter had been on their favorite team?   Granted...he does get more than his share of press...but is that his fault?  He carries himself with dignity and professionalism and is respected throughout the league.  
I don't consider myself a "detractor" but I'll say that I agree with you that Jeter's a professional, an obvious HoF'er (I already said that!), AND that I would have loved him on my favorite team.  But if he'd spent 1995-2014 as a Detroit Tiger, I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be any "Is Jeter overrated?" debate.  We would have heard/read his name about 1/1000th as much as we're hearing/reading now.  (And yes, it's not Jeter's fault he's overrated.)
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