All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > .500 Record Requirement for D1 Postseason(Poll)
5/13/2014 7:37 AM
there is a .500 requirement for NT

in my opinion, .500 would be too strict for the PIT,

BUT there should be more value given to wins, so that a record like that discussed in OP doesnt get into the PIT
5/13/2014 10:28 AM
Team A: 12-15, 57 RPI/65 SOS
Team B: 20-8, 169 RPI/275 SOS

Which team should earn a PIT bid?
5/13/2014 10:40 AM
Most Mid to low end D1 schools are simply going to have a lower RPI and SOS by the nature that they play the majority of their games vs SIMs (12-16 Sims in a conference). That does not mean that they are less of a team. To make a fair, and probably impossible, comparison it would need to actually look at who they played (and home or away) and how they did in those games.
The 12-15 might have won 8 of their 12 wins against non conference SIMs and only won 4 of 16 (you have Team A playing 27 games and Team B 28).

It maybe a matter of personal preference for the PIT. As I have stated; I feel that the Team A's, who I would wager is already getting benefit of prestige and large conference money for recruiting, should also not get a post season bump for being mediocre.
5/13/2014 11:04 AM
I would argue 20-7 (took off a loss to make the total games even above) against a 275 SOS is pretty darn mediocre too..probably more so than Team A's record.
To make a fair, and probably impossible, comparison it would need to actually look at who they played (and home or away) and how they did in those games.
This doesn't really make sense to me.  Isn't that exactly what RPI and the Projection Report do?  Maybe not perfectly, but the numbers are what they are.
5/13/2014 11:42 AM
There should be a .500 minimum to be in the PIT...same as real life. It is absurd that 10-17 BCS schools go to the tournament (PIT) and take the extra recruiting money that the mid and lower Div I schools should get.
5/13/2014 12:43 PM
Posted by smackawits on 5/13/2014 11:42:00 AM (view original):
There should be a .500 minimum to be in the PIT...same as real life. It is absurd that 10-17 BCS schools go to the tournament (PIT) and take the extra recruiting money that the mid and lower Div I schools should get.
If you're accepting the parallel of PIT here means NIT in real life, then there is no .500 minimum winning percentage any longer (in real life).
5/13/2014 12:51 PM
Posted by killbatman on 5/13/2014 11:04:00 AM (view original):
I would argue 20-7 (took off a loss to make the total games even above) against a 275 SOS is pretty darn mediocre too..probably more so than Team A's record.
To make a fair, and probably impossible, comparison it would need to actually look at who they played (and home or away) and how they did in those games.
This doesn't really make sense to me.  Isn't that exactly what RPI and the Projection Report do?  Maybe not perfectly, but the numbers are what they are.
Yes I could be wrong Killbatman or maybe not. Here is an example of one team in one of the 'Super'  Conferences. Non conference schedule 10 SIMS, Only 3 of which today have a winning record 21-2, 16-10, and 11-10. They won 9 of the 10 SIM games (losing to the 21-2 SIM).

Conference they are 2-9. They have a RPI with that of 67 and SOS of 55. A PIT team? They are 11-10. They probably will get in even though they very well may finish 13-13 in regular season. and 3-13 in conference. I do believe that the RPI weighs heavily on the Conference Schedule.
5/13/2014 12:52 PM

I'd be OK with a .500 min restriction for post-season play as long as you also add a 150 RPI/SOS restriction to go with it.  Those mid-major teams that play in near empty conferences would need to play a way harder OOC to go along with their possible cup cake conference schedule to balance things.

So neither of the above two teams would initially qualify and would only get added if no other team meets those qualifications.

By the way, those two teams have unequal records probably due to the fact that Team A lost in the first round of the CT while Team B won 1 CT matchup and lost the second (thus the one more game played).

5/13/2014 1:06 PM (edited)
" I kind of favor getting smaller schools in. Spreads the money around (granted a very little bit more) and gives coaches at the mid-major level a chance to keep playing when they probably don't make the postseason every year like some Big 6 schools do. I know with an A+ prestige school I'd be disgusted with a PIT berth and would just as well not be in the postseason anyway, so might as well give it to the mid-major who would be somewhat excited by it. "

My feelings... what Piman said

and as far as the real NIT.. they have humans decide who gets in and they will absolutely NOT take a 10-17. They will skip over those teams and included the smaller teams with better W/L pct. It's not just a math formula. The .500 rule may not follow current real NCAA, but would probably give you a PIT field that looked more like the real NIT one.

I'm not positive .500 is the very best solution, but I believe it's better for the game than what we have now... and I don't think 8-19 belongs anywhere in the postseason.
5/13/2014 1:09 PM
I would absolutely agree that small conference teams need to schedule extremely tough non-conf if they want to play the 'I can't help my bad SOS' card.
5/13/2014 1:15 PM
Posted by taniajane on 5/13/2014 12:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by killbatman on 5/13/2014 11:04:00 AM (view original):
I would argue 20-7 (took off a loss to make the total games even above) against a 275 SOS is pretty darn mediocre too..probably more so than Team A's record.
To make a fair, and probably impossible, comparison it would need to actually look at who they played (and home or away) and how they did in those games.
This doesn't really make sense to me.  Isn't that exactly what RPI and the Projection Report do?  Maybe not perfectly, but the numbers are what they are.
Yes I could be wrong Killbatman or maybe not. Here is an example of one team in one of the 'Super'  Conferences. Non conference schedule 10 SIMS, Only 3 of which today have a winning record 21-2, 16-10, and 11-10. They won 9 of the 10 SIM games (losing to the 21-2 SIM).

Conference they are 2-9. They have a RPI with that of 67 and SOS of 55. A PIT team? They are 11-10. They probably will get in even though they very well may finish 13-13 in regular season. and 3-13 in conference. I do believe that the RPI weighs heavily on the Conference Schedule.
RPI doesn't give more value to any games over others.  The conf schedule doesn't get double counted or anything.

No doubt that RPI can be gamed, though.  Scheduling 10 sims is a pretty common strategy for that.  However I believe the Projection Report is now much smarter about accounting for that than it was in the past.  If that 13-13 team never beats anyone with a pulse, they will be rated accordingly.  Same for the 20-win team with the 275 SOS.
5/13/2014 1:18 PM
Well I disagree. But I have been wrong before (ask my ex).
5/13/2014 1:24 PM
What do you disagree with, the part about the Projection Report?  That's certainly debatable either way, although I think my opinion is right :)

RPI is a documented formula, so I don't think that part is really opinion.

5/13/2014 1:28 PM
Posted by killbatman on 5/13/2014 1:24:00 PM (view original):
What do you disagree with, the part about the Projection Report?  That's certainly debatable either way, although I think my opinion is right :)

RPI is a documented formula, so I don't think that part is really opinion.

I am not sure how the RPI is documented but the team I mentioned has exactly 2 victories over an above .500 team to date yet it has a 67 RPI? 2 wins out of 11 total wins.
I would love to see that documentation. Those two wins are from non conference SIMs
5/13/2014 1:34 PM
From FAQ:

Q: What is the RPI?
A: The RPI (Rating Percentage Index) is a measure of strength of schedule and how a team does against that schedule. It does not consider margin of victory. It is used by the NCAA as one of their factors in deciding which teams to invite to the NCAA tournament and where to seed them. The basic formula is 25% team winning percentage (WP), 50% opponents' average winning percentage (OWP), and 25% opponents' opponents' average winning percentage (OOWP). When calculating winning percentage (WP), the RPI weights a road win as 1.4 x a normal win, a home loss as 1.4 x a normal loss, a road loss as 0.6 x a normal loss, a home win as 0.6 x a normal win and neutral site games are weighted at 1.0.
Q: What is SOS?
A: SOS stands for strength of schedule. It's calculated as 67% opponents' winning percentage (OWP) and 33% opponents' opponents' winning percentage (OOWP), the same ratio as in the RPI formula.
 
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