Ripken was moved in his mid 30s when his D was no longer acceptable.     Carew and Banks were moved in their early 30s.  I can't find anything that would indicate neither of them was slipping defensively.    But their teams wanted better D in the MIF and both those guys were still hitting.

It was my understanding that Banks had knee issues, so he moved for that reason.  Obviously I could be wrong.

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 1:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 1:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 12:51:00 PM (view original):

But, again, that wasn't the point I was making.  I believe, back in the day, that teams were more "defense first" at a few positions.    They would take a Jeter or a Ripken, move them to 3B and find a Mark Belanger to play SS.    I think teams now look at it as more of a plus/minus game.   Yeah, Jeter and Ripken are going to cost your some outs in the field but will they more than make up for it a the plate?    If so, they stay at SS. 

OK.  Those are still positions where it's not easy to find many great hitters.  It may be easier than it was 50 years ago, but there are still plenty of 1B and RFs who can hit like only a handful of middle infielders, and to a lesser extent, third basemen.  Back to my original argument.

And my original argument was that there are no more "defensive" positions.   If a guy can hit and play a servicable "defensive position", he's not moved to 1B or RF.  He has more value at 2B/3B and allows a team to get a slug for 1B.

You're essentially arguing the same thing. The reason a great hitter has more value at 3b than 1b is because it's easier to find another 1b that can hit well.

And you're kind of making my point for me - people see value in guys who can hit and play a position like SS.  Because it's rare.  So if you can play the position, you stay there, because it's not difficult to find a masher to play other positions.

? I've done that before. Responded quickly assuming someone was mike or tec. I agree with you on this.

...and so does mike, he just doesn't realize it.

We posted essentially the same thing in response to Mike at the same time.  I don't always quote.

Oh ok.

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/27/2014 4:34:00 PM (view original):
Try projecting a reasonable career stat line for Beltre at the time of his retirement.  Then factor in his excellent defense and see how many guys you think are ahead of him on the all-time list of 3B.

My list would be Schmidt, Brett, Boggs, Mathews, Rodriguez if you want to count him, and Chipper Jones.  Maybe John McGraw.  I would rate Santo about equal.

I still want the guys arguing that Beltre isn't a Hall of Famer to respond to this.

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 1:22:00 PM (view original):
And you're kind of making my point for me - people see value in guys who can hit and play a position like SS.  Because it's rare.  So if you can play the position, you stay there, because it's not difficult to find a masher to play other positions.

Not really.  I'm saying, in 1970, that a guy who could hit but not field a "defensive position" at the highest level, was moved in favor of a Mark Belanger.    Now, they stay put if their offense makes up for the D.   And, as a result, acceptable D is less than it was 40 years ago.

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/27/2014 7:04:00 AM (view original):
I see I have to elaborate.

Beltre and Ichiro were a couple of the top players at their position during their careers.  Perhaps top players in their era.  All-stars.   Very good.   However, that doesn't make them Hall of Famers.    Except, in Ichiro's case, he was a historically significant player.   First Asian position player to be a difference maker.   An iconic player.  Thus making him HOF material.   Beltre is just another very good Dominican player.

Can't believe ANYONE thought I was speaking of their specific skill sets.   

I found this comparison kind of funny as well.

Ichiro is going to make the HOF for other reasons than Beltre, which makes them very different.  Ichiro was FAMOUS. Because he's Asian, because he's SO good at doing really one thing very well (which is getting hits), because he's flashy, because he's popular.  He's a fan-favorite, he stands out, he makes the Hall of FAME.  

Beltre will make the HOF as a compiler...he does nothing that really shouts at you.  3000 hits and 450 homers makes the HOF as a 3rd baseman, period.  Great defense is the cherry on top.  But he surprises you that he has those numbers.  You'd think he'd be more popular, more famous, like Ichiro, but he's not.  He doesn't stand out but is still a fantastically productive player.  Mike doesn't want him in the HOF for these reasons, but he's snuck under the radar as a fantastic player. 

I've already said 3000 hits gets him in.  

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 1:22:00 PM (view original):
And you're kind of making my point for me - people see value in guys who can hit and play a position like SS.  Because it's rare.  So if you can play the position, you stay there, because it's not difficult to find a masher to play other positions.

Not really.  I'm saying, in 1970, that a guy who could hit but not field a "defensive position" at the highest level, was moved in favor of a Mark Belanger.    Now, they stay put if their offense makes up for the D.   And, as a result, acceptable D is less than it was 40 years ago.

I disagree in the aspect that you still need to play the position at an acceptable level.  Maybe the level is moved much, but you can't play 2B like Alfonso Soriano, otherwise you're moved to the outfield.  

Even so - someone who can play a position like 2B, SS, 3B, and hit really well?  Is still relatively hard to find.  Beltre is special for that reason.  Plays 3B (really well, but that's kinda besides the point) and looks like he's going to compile fantastic numbers.  Makes him one of the best 3B we've ever seen.  Easily top 10, arguably as high as 6 or so, which puts him in the conversation for HOF.  And it's hard to not allow the guy who gets 3000 hits in, regardless of the position.

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 1:22:00 PM (view original):
And you're kind of making my point for me - people see value in guys who can hit and play a position like SS.  Because it's rare.  So if you can play the position, you stay there, because it's not difficult to find a masher to play other positions.

Not really.  I'm saying, in 1970, that a guy who could hit but not field a "defensive position" at the highest level, was moved in favor of a Mark Belanger.    Now, they stay put if their offense makes up for the D.   And, as a result, acceptable D is less than it was 40 years ago.

I disagree in the aspect that you still need to play the position at an acceptable level.  Maybe the level is moved much, but you can't play 2B like Alfonso Soriano, otherwise you're moved to the outfield.  

Even so - someone who can play a position like 2B, SS, 3B, and hit really well?  Is still relatively hard to find.  Beltre is special for that reason.  Plays 3B (really well, but that's kinda besides the point) and looks like he's going to compile fantastic numbers.  Makes him one of the best 3B we've ever seen.  Easily top 10, arguably as high as 6 or so, which puts him in the conversation for HOF.  And it's hard to not allow the guy who gets 3000 hits in, regardless of the position.

I'm glad you brought up Soriano because I was thinking about his career.

In 1970, he never sees 2B.   He was horrible at SS in his minor league career and was slated to play LF.   But Knoblauch forgot how to throw so Soriano was moved to 2B.  He wasn't very good at it but the Yanks, and the Rangers, said "30/30 from a guy who's not the worst 2B ever at second?   We'll take it."   And he played a lot of games at 2B until he was traded to Wash(who had Vidro who could OPS .750 AND play 2B).   So the initial plan was back in place.  LF.

I'll add that Jeter never plays SS in 1970.  He had at least one, and I think it was two, 50+ error seasons in the minors.    He's moved to 3B or LF well before he hits the bigs in the 70s. 

That's funny. I'd argue that defense today is better than it was in the 1970s.

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 1:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 1:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 1:22:00 PM (view original):
And you're kind of making my point for me - people see value in guys who can hit and play a position like SS.  Because it's rare.  So if you can play the position, you stay there, because it's not difficult to find a masher to play other positions.

Not really.  I'm saying, in 1970, that a guy who could hit but not field a "defensive position" at the highest level, was moved in favor of a Mark Belanger.    Now, they stay put if their offense makes up for the D.   And, as a result, acceptable D is less than it was 40 years ago.

I disagree in the aspect that you still need to play the position at an acceptable level.  Maybe the level is moved much, but you can't play 2B like Alfonso Soriano, otherwise you're moved to the outfield.  

Even so - someone who can play a position like 2B, SS, 3B, and hit really well?  Is still relatively hard to find.  Beltre is special for that reason.  Plays 3B (really well, but that's kinda besides the point) and looks like he's going to compile fantastic numbers.  Makes him one of the best 3B we've ever seen.  Easily top 10, arguably as high as 6 or so, which puts him in the conversation for HOF.  And it's hard to not allow the guy who gets 3000 hits in, regardless of the position.

I'm glad you brought up Soriano because I was thinking about his career.

In 1970, he never sees 2B.   He was horrible at SS in his minor league career and was slated to play LF.   But Knoblauch forgot how to throw so Soriano was moved to 2B.  He wasn't very good at it but the Yanks, and the Rangers, said "30/30 from a guy who's not the worst 2B ever at second?   We'll take it."   And he played a lot of games at 2B until he was traded to Wash(who had Vidro who could OPS .750 AND play 2B).   So the initial plan was back in place.  LF.

I'll add that Jeter never plays SS in 1970.  He had at least one, and I think it was two, 50+ error seasons in the minors.    He's moved to 3B or LF well before he hits the bigs in the 70s. 

So there's a level you need to perform at.  It may have moved a touch, but I don't think it's moved as much as you think it does.  There aren't many guys who can perform at such a level defensively and also be able to hit very well.  Miggy Cabrera kind of tip-toes that line - is he more valuable at 3B, where he's essentially a butcher, but allows you to get a slugger at 1B, or more valuable at 1B, where his ****** defense is easier to hide?