All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Adrian Beltre
7/28/2014 5:02 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 4:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 4:39:00 PM (view original):
There aren't many people who can play 3B well.  Beltre can.  He can also hit VERY well.  This makes him very valuable.  He's rare.
He may be rare.   But that doesn't make him a HOFer.  

John Franco was rare.   A small LHP you didn't throw particularly hard but still got a lot of people out.   Had an outstanding career.   But not a HOF career.
Yea, just gloss over the "very valuable" part.
7/28/2014 5:04 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 4:39:00 PM (view original):

And, as I said, 40 years ago, they valued defense over offense at SS and CF thus making them "defensive positions".   That no longer exists for the exact reason you just laid out.  

Unless you can play the position and hit.  Still true.  The standards held by people in the 60s may have been slightly different.  
7/28/2014 5:08 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/24/2014 10:15:00 AM (view original):
Gold glove quality defender at 3rd base, 3000 hits, 3rd most homers of any 3rd baseman? It was said earlier, but people forget that 3rd base isn't really an "offensive" position.  He's an obvious vote if he continues this pace.
You started this over this post.  It's not wrong - most guys who hit as well as Beltre has for an entire career don't play as difficult a position as 3B (even now).  The fact that he has makes him more valuable, and more worthy of the HOF.
7/28/2014 5:23 PM
Beltre will be in the Hall.
7/28/2014 6:11 PM
Other than accumulating hits and home runs, he sure doesn't smell like a HOFer.  He's got a lot of sub-.800 OPS seasons on his resume prior to the past 5 seasons in offense-friendly parks.

He's basically the modern day Ron Santo, who never got more than 43% of the vote, and needed the VC to get into the Hall.

Seriously, 10-12 years into his career, did anybody ever look at Beltre and think "hey, I'm watching a HOFer here"?
7/28/2014 6:15 PM
Even baseball-reference.com doesn't give him much props, as his page there has him wearing a Mariners cap.  He hasn't been in Seattle since 2009.
7/28/2014 6:18 PM
OTOH, his BBR page also lists comparable hitters through age 34.  10 of them.  7 are in the Hall, and one of the others is still active (though he won't get in - it's Aramis Ramirez).
7/28/2014 6:36 PM
Yeah, but year by year it's Santo for all but two seasons.
7/28/2014 6:42 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/28/2014 6:15:00 PM (view original):
Even baseball-reference.com doesn't give him much props, as his page there has him wearing a Mariners cap.  He hasn't been in Seattle since 2009.
That's really common. BR doesn't update pics for players very often. Sabathia is still wearing an Indians hat on his page. Pujols still shows St. Louis. Greinke is still in a Royals cap. Josh Hamilton is still in a Rangers hat. ****, Miguel Cabrera still looks like a 14 year old in a Florida Marlins cap.
7/28/2014 6:52 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 5:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 4:39:00 PM (view original):

And, as I said, 40 years ago, they valued defense over offense at SS and CF thus making them "defensive positions".   That no longer exists for the exact reason you just laid out.  

Unless you can play the position and hit.  Still true.  The standards held by people in the 60s may have been slightly different.  
I think you're still missing the point.   You said "And people forget that 3B is a defensive position."
I countered with "I don't think there's such a thing as a defensive position these days.  I think teams look at the plus of the bat against the minus of the glove.  And, if it leans to the the positive, the guy plays what was once considered a defensive position."

And away we went.

To make it understandable, on something we already agreed upon, I'll bring back Soriano.   Not a good 2B.  But hit the **** out of the ball.   So he played 2B for almost 800 games.    I don't think that happens in 1970.   I can't prove it but I think teams felt "Oh, hell no.  Where's Felix Millan?  We'll put Soriano in LF!!!"
7/28/2014 6:54 PM
Posted by 05nomar05 on 7/28/2014 5:23:00 PM (view original):
Beltre will be in the Hall.
I've already said that.  If he reaches 3000 hits, he's in.   And that looks like a gimme.
7/28/2014 7:16 PM (edited)
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 6:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 5:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 4:39:00 PM (view original):

And, as I said, 40 years ago, they valued defense over offense at SS and CF thus making them "defensive positions".   That no longer exists for the exact reason you just laid out.  

Unless you can play the position and hit.  Still true.  The standards held by people in the 60s may have been slightly different.  
I think you're still missing the point.   You said "And people forget that 3B is a defensive position."
I countered with "I don't think there's such a thing as a defensive position these days.  I think teams look at the plus of the bat against the minus of the glove.  And, if it leans to the the positive, the guy plays what was once considered a defensive position."

And away we went.

To make it understandable, on something we already agreed upon, I'll bring back Soriano.   Not a good 2B.  But hit the **** out of the ball.   So he played 2B for almost 800 games.    I don't think that happens in 1970.   I can't prove it but I think teams felt "Oh, hell no.  Where's Felix Millan?  We'll put Soriano in LF!!!"
The original point was that people tend to hold third basemen to offensive standards similar to first basemen. Which is why there aren't a lot of third basemen in the hall of fame. They should actually be held to offensive standards closer to second basemen.

Beltre, even with his bad walk rate, is already one of the best offensive third basemen and his defense pushes him up into all time great territory. At age 35, Beltre ranks 8th on the JAWS list. Another couple solid years and he easily passes Robinson and Santo to move into 6th, behind Chipper Jones, Brett, Boggs, Mathews, and Schmidt.


7/29/2014 9:16 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 6:52:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/28/2014 5:04:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/28/2014 4:39:00 PM (view original):

And, as I said, 40 years ago, they valued defense over offense at SS and CF thus making them "defensive positions".   That no longer exists for the exact reason you just laid out.  

Unless you can play the position and hit.  Still true.  The standards held by people in the 60s may have been slightly different.  
I think you're still missing the point.   You said "And people forget that 3B is a defensive position."
I countered with "I don't think there's such a thing as a defensive position these days.  I think teams look at the plus of the bat against the minus of the glove.  And, if it leans to the the positive, the guy plays what was once considered a defensive position."

And away we went.

To make it understandable, on something we already agreed upon, I'll bring back Soriano.   Not a good 2B.  But hit the **** out of the ball.   So he played 2B for almost 800 games.    I don't think that happens in 1970.   I can't prove it but I think teams felt "Oh, hell no.  Where's Felix Millan?  We'll put Soriano in LF!!!"
I said a lot of people seem to think that 3B is more of an offensive position, and it's really not.  Beltre adds more value than many think because it's not easy to find great hitters who can play 3B.  It's much easier to find great hitters to play 1B and RF.  I've noticed a lot of people lump 3B into that category and it's not true.  If Mike Napoli could play 3B, he could be an all-star with his offensive numbers.  But he can't, so he's not not even close.
7/29/2014 9:27 AM
Isn't this the defensive spectrum?    DH, 1B, LF, RF, 3B, CF, 2B, SS

Seems that 3B is between RF and CF.
7/29/2014 9:27 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 9:27:00 AM (view original):
Isn't this the defensive spectrum?    DH, 1B, LF, RF, 3B, CF, 2B, SS

Seems that 3B is between RF and CF.
I don't know, is it?

And? You have a point?
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