All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Adrian Beltre
7/29/2014 10:24 AM
Dang.  You deleted your response to "Explain it to me."    I'll assume 1 of 2 things:

1.  You can't.
2.  You realized that the skills required to to play RF are closer to 3B than LF.    Or, at least, pretty much the same difference.
7/29/2014 10:26 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 10:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 10:08:00 AM (view original):
No, I don't.  But it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the degree of difficulty between left field and right field isn't as strong as right field and third base.
Explain it to me.
OK, maybe you think it does take a genius.  Left field and right field are very similar in that you have similar amounts of ground to cover in catching fly balls.  You're essentially doing the same thing, just a mirror image of the diamond.  You may desire a slightly more rangy left fielder because more balls are hit his way, and you may want a right fielder with a slightly better arm because he's often making longer throws.  Otherwise, they're similar.

Third basemen are harder to come by - they need spectacularly better reaction time than corner outfielders do.  They need a better arm than corner outfielders do, even right fielders.  They need to be much quicker in getting rid of the ball than outfielders do.  Their throws need to be accurate, where outfielders generally don't need to be.  An average ground ball to the third baseman generally has a larger degree of difficulty than a fly ball to a corner outfielder.
7/29/2014 10:27 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 10:24:00 AM (view original):
Dang.  You deleted your response to "Explain it to me."    I'll assume 1 of 2 things:

1.  You can't.
2.  You realized that the skills required to to play RF are closer to 3B than LF.    Or, at least, pretty much the same difference.
3. I decided you're actually a moron, and I needed to explain it to you.
7/29/2014 10:28 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 10:22:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 10:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 10:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 10:09:00 AM (view original):
From your article and your new BFFs, Bill James and Jay Jaffe:

His key observation was that offensive ability increases the further left a position sits on the spectrum, due to the selective pressure applied to the talent pool, while defensive ability increases the further to the right a position sits. It's much easier to find players who can hit well while filling the less defensively demanding positions, an observation that has an intuitive appeal for the casual fan, for it explains the seemingly endless supply of big galoots who can mash but wear iron gloves, as well as flyweight middle infielders who can pick it but can't hit their weight.
Have I ever disputed that?   If so, please quote it.
If you agree, than you agree with me.  All I've said is that 3B isn't exactly an offensive position like many people seem to think it is, because it's a more difficult defensive position to play, and it's hard to find guys who can hit very well and play the position.  It makes Beltre more valuable than people realize.  He's more like a 2B in terms of defensive difficulty than he is a corner outfielder.
I don't agree that there are "defensive" positions.    The chart that Jaffe had shows that there's been more of a move to the middle and more of a leveling out at each position.   Look at the friggin' 70s.  
Jaffe also thinks Beltre's probably a HOFer if he retired today.
7/29/2014 10:34 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 10:28:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 10:22:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 10:17:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 10:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 10:09:00 AM (view original):
From your article and your new BFFs, Bill James and Jay Jaffe:

His key observation was that offensive ability increases the further left a position sits on the spectrum, due to the selective pressure applied to the talent pool, while defensive ability increases the further to the right a position sits. It's much easier to find players who can hit well while filling the less defensively demanding positions, an observation that has an intuitive appeal for the casual fan, for it explains the seemingly endless supply of big galoots who can mash but wear iron gloves, as well as flyweight middle infielders who can pick it but can't hit their weight.
Have I ever disputed that?   If so, please quote it.
If you agree, than you agree with me.  All I've said is that 3B isn't exactly an offensive position like many people seem to think it is, because it's a more difficult defensive position to play, and it's hard to find guys who can hit very well and play the position.  It makes Beltre more valuable than people realize.  He's more like a 2B in terms of defensive difficulty than he is a corner outfielder.
I don't agree that there are "defensive" positions.    The chart that Jaffe had shows that there's been more of a move to the middle and more of a leveling out at each position.   Look at the friggin' 70s.  
Jaffe also thinks Beltre's probably a HOFer if he retired today.
So Jaffe's not always right.

But his chart is his chart not his opinion.

7/29/2014 10:39 AM
I finally looked at his chart.  Looks like not much of a difference between offensive ability between 3B in the 70s than there is currently.  If anything, it may be trending down.
7/29/2014 10:46 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 10:26:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 10:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 10:08:00 AM (view original):
No, I don't.  But it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the degree of difficulty between left field and right field isn't as strong as right field and third base.
Explain it to me.
OK, maybe you think it does take a genius.  Left field and right field are very similar in that you have similar amounts of ground to cover in catching fly balls.  You're essentially doing the same thing, just a mirror image of the diamond.  You may desire a slightly more rangy left fielder because more balls are hit his way, and you may want a right fielder with a slightly better arm because he's often making longer throws.  Otherwise, they're similar.

Third basemen are harder to come by - they need spectacularly better reaction time than corner outfielders do.  They need a better arm than corner outfielders do, even right fielders.  They need to be much quicker in getting rid of the ball than outfielders do.  Their throws need to be accurate, where outfielders generally don't need to be.  An average ground ball to the third baseman generally has a larger degree of difficulty than a fly ball to a corner outfielder.
I agree with most of that.  Let's recap:

LF:  Ability to judge and catch flyballs.  The foot speed to get there.   Arm somewhat optional as the throws to 2B/3B are the shortest in the OF.
RF: Ability to judge and catch flyballs.  The foot speed to get there.  Arm more important because you want to stop the first to third on a hit.
3B: Reaction skills to catch hard hit grounders.   Foot speed doesn't matter.  Arm to make the throws on backhands on the bag. 

Ability to catch struck balls:  LF, RF, 3B
Foot speed:  LF, RF
Arm strength/accuracy:  RF, 3B 

In short, you need better reaction time to play 3B.   You need the ability to judge, and get to, balls in the OF.   I do agree that you want a little more speed in LF.  More RH batters who will pull the ball and put a little more zing on the ball.   You need to be able to make strong throws in RF and 3B.     Do you really think there's that much more difference between RF and 3B than there is LF and RF?
7/29/2014 11:04 AM
Let's try it this way.

A guy isn't cutting it at 3B.  He's reasonably agile(not Miggy-like).   Do you move him to RF or LF?
7/29/2014 11:04 AM
The only thing you really don't need at 3B is range like a middle infielder would.  You need spectacular reaction time and you need a stronger arm than any outfielder, and you need to be great at getting rid of the ball once you field it.  Skills that are much harder to come by than the ability to judge and catch fly balls, and also having some foot speed.  This is why you find some unathletic loafs in the outfield from time to time, and you don't really find that at 3B.

If you disagree, fine, you're in the minority, but it really doesn't matter since we've determined based on your BFFs charts, that the offense of the 3B really hasn't changed much at all over time, even when teams were "defense first" as you claim they were.
7/29/2014 11:11 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 11:04:00 AM (view original):
Let's try it this way.

A guy isn't cutting it at 3B.  He's reasonably agile(not Miggy-like).   Do you move him to RF or LF?
It really depends.  You want me to say RF because of arm strength, but there are 3B who have moved to LF.  Ryan Braun, Zimmerman has been playing some LF this year.  Depends how rangy he is.  Even Miggy has played more LF than RF.
7/29/2014 11:15 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 11:04:00 AM (view original):
The only thing you really don't need at 3B is range like a middle infielder would.  You need spectacular reaction time and you need a stronger arm than any outfielder, and you need to be great at getting rid of the ball once you field it.  Skills that are much harder to come by than the ability to judge and catch fly balls, and also having some foot speed.  This is why you find some unathletic loafs in the outfield from time to time, and you don't really find that at 3B.

If you disagree, fine, you're in the minority, but it really doesn't matter since we've determined based on your BFFs charts, that the offense of the 3B really hasn't changed much at all over time, even when teams were "defense first" as you claim they were.
Uh, I've never claimed that 3B is a "defense first" position.    The positions I've been calling "defense first", SS/2B, have made pretty dramatic improvements since the 70s.   Do you even know what we're arguing about?

I suppose I could list some "unathletic oafs" who've played 3B but that seems pointless since I'm not sure you know what you're arguing.   3B requires reaction skills.  Possibly more than any other position except C(which should probably be left out of defensive discussions since requires unique skills).   Neither LF or RF requires reaction skill at that level.   What RF does require, that LF does not, is a strong, accurate arm.  Much like it's #2 on a 3B's list of skills. 
7/29/2014 11:44 AM
I told you that 3B is a tough place to find great hitters like Beltre, because it's not exactly an offensive position like COF or 1B, and you said "times have changed, gramps." So...yea.  Looks like nothing has changed in terms of 3rd basemen.

Arm strength and accuracy are mandatory at 3B...not so much RF.  Nick Swisher and Boby Abreu didn't exactly scream "great arm!" did they? You can hide poor defenders at those positions. Teams with multiple 1B have put those extra guys in the outfield.  
7/29/2014 12:14 PM
Jesus, you're acting dumb.

You said "not an offensive position."   I said "I don't think defensive positions exists anymore."   Jaffe's chart shows that every position has moved towards the middle in terms of offensive production over the years. 

What part of this is way too complicated for you to understand?   I'd say "Want me to draw you a picture?" but Jaffe's chart shows you exactly what I said so pictures won't work. 

7/29/2014 12:16 PM
Actually, I don't know why I'm bothering.    Anyone who claims to be a baseball fan but doesn't know what the "defensive spectrum" is obviously doesn't really know much about baseball.
7/29/2014 12:18 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 9:27:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 9:27:00 AM (view original):
Isn't this the defensive spectrum?    DH, 1B, LF, RF, 3B, CF, 2B, SS

Seems that 3B is between RF and CF.
I don't know, is it?

And? You have a point?
I should have stopped here.   It was obvious you knew nothing about defensive baseball at this point.
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