All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Adrian Beltre
7/29/2014 2:44 PM
I said "isn't really an "offensive" position."  Because it isn't, and hasn't been.  You took it from there.

It does have to do with defensive ability.  The ability to play the position.  Most MLB players don't have the ability to play 3B at an acceptable level.  Beltre does, that's a valuable thing.  A decent amount of players can hit like Beltre does, but they can't play 3B.

It looks like not much has changed since the 70s, aside from middle infielders becoming better hitters.  If there was a term people used called "defensive position" in referring to the middle infield, ok.  I wasn't trying to use a specific 70s-age baseball term when I said "wasn't really an "offensive" position."  

Again, a lot of people seem to look at 3B as having a similar offensive skillset to 1B and COF.  That's never been true.
7/29/2014 3:07 PM
Good lord.  The chart has nothing to do with defensive ability.  Nothing. 

A team was often built with "defense up the middle, hitting on the corners."   That was old school.   It's changed.   But that's why 3B were often lumped with COF/1B. 
7/29/2014 3:12 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 3:07:00 PM (view original):
Good lord.  The chart has nothing to do with defensive ability.  Nothing. 

A team was often built with "defense up the middle, hitting on the corners."   That was old school.   It's changed.   But that's why 3B were often lumped with COF/1B. 
Obviously it involves the ability to play the position it lists.  Beltre's included within 3B because he plays 3B.  He has the ability to play 3B.

Yes, and that mentality is incorrect, which has been my point.  Little to nothing has changed in terms of 3B/COF/1B.
7/29/2014 3:13 PM
For instance, going back to the 70s, I've argued Graig Nettles has been one of the more underrated Yankees of all time.  Possibly the most underrated.  For this reason.
7/29/2014 3:20 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 3:13:00 PM (view original):
For instance, going back to the 70s, I've argued Graig Nettles has been one of the more underrated Yankees of all time.  Possibly the most underrated.  For this reason.
Nettles wouldn't be underrated by anybody who saw him play regularly.  Best defensive 3B in the 70's, and despite offensive numbers that don't look that impressive when viewed through today's context, he was a respected power hitter in his time.
7/29/2014 3:34 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 3:13:00 PM (view original):
For instance, going back to the 70s, I've argued Graig Nettles has been one of the more underrated Yankees of all time.  Possibly the most underrated.  For this reason.

Heh.  Funny you mention Nettles.   Got me thinking of the 70s 3B.   Nettles, Bando, Money, Hebner, Petrocelli, etc, etc.    They were all the same guy.  .250-.270, 18-25 homers.   Essentially Beltre the first 11 years of his career.    HOF, my ***.

7/29/2014 3:43 PM (edited)
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 3:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 3:13:00 PM (view original):
For instance, going back to the 70s, I've argued Graig Nettles has been one of the more underrated Yankees of all time.  Possibly the most underrated.  For this reason.

Heh.  Funny you mention Nettles.   Got me thinking of the 70s 3B.   Nettles, Bando, Money, Hebner, Petrocelli, etc, etc.    They were all the same guy.  .250-.270, 18-25 homers.   Essentially Beltre the first 11 years of his career.    HOF, my ***.

Right. There were no dominant offensive 3B. There were dominant offensive 1B and COFers.  And Nettles was a stud defensively.  That's the point.  You can make an argument that Nettles was the best 3B of his generation next to George Brett. Great-hitting 3B don't grow on trees.
7/29/2014 3:45 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 3:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 3:13:00 PM (view original):
For instance, going back to the 70s, I've argued Graig Nettles has been one of the more underrated Yankees of all time.  Possibly the most underrated.  For this reason.

Heh.  Funny you mention Nettles.   Got me thinking of the 70s 3B.   Nettles, Bando, Money, Hebner, Petrocelli, etc, etc.    They were all the same guy.  .250-.270, 18-25 homers.   Essentially Beltre the first 11 years of his career.    HOF, my ***.

The whole career counts, though. Why stop at 11 years?
7/29/2014 3:45 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 3:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 3:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 3:13:00 PM (view original):
For instance, going back to the 70s, I've argued Graig Nettles has been one of the more underrated Yankees of all time.  Possibly the most underrated.  For this reason.

Heh.  Funny you mention Nettles.   Got me thinking of the 70s 3B.   Nettles, Bando, Money, Hebner, Petrocelli, etc, etc.    They were all the same guy.  .250-.270, 18-25 homers.   Essentially Beltre the first 11 years of his career.    HOF, my ***.

Right. There were no dominant offensive 3B. There were dominant offensive 1B and COFers.  And Nettles was a stud defensively.  That's the point.  You can make an argument that Nettles was the best 3B of his generation next to George Brett. Great-hitting 3B don't grow on trees.
And it's exactly what Beltre was for a dozen seasons.   In an era of heavy hitting.    He was not a "great" hitter for the vast majority of his career.  He was Richie Hebner or Sal Bando. 
7/29/2014 3:46 PM
Again, his entire career counts. And, over his entire career, he's one of the best 5 or 6 third basemen of all time.
7/29/2014 3:53 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 3:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 3:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 3:13:00 PM (view original):
For instance, going back to the 70s, I've argued Graig Nettles has been one of the more underrated Yankees of all time.  Possibly the most underrated.  For this reason.

Heh.  Funny you mention Nettles.   Got me thinking of the 70s 3B.   Nettles, Bando, Money, Hebner, Petrocelli, etc, etc.    They were all the same guy.  .250-.270, 18-25 homers.   Essentially Beltre the first 11 years of his career.    HOF, my ***.

Right. There were no dominant offensive 3B. There were dominant offensive 1B and COFers.  And Nettles was a stud defensively.  That's the point.  You can make an argument that Nettles was the best 3B of his generation next to George Brett. Great-hitting 3B don't grow on trees.
And it's exactly what Beltre was for a dozen seasons.   In an era of heavy hitting.    He was not a "great" hitter for the vast majority of his career.  He was Richie Hebner or Sal Bando. 
Now he's a dominant player.  And Beltre wants credit for 2004.  11 seasons of Sal Bando.
7/29/2014 3:58 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 3:53:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 3:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 3:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 3:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 3:13:00 PM (view original):
For instance, going back to the 70s, I've argued Graig Nettles has been one of the more underrated Yankees of all time.  Possibly the most underrated.  For this reason.

Heh.  Funny you mention Nettles.   Got me thinking of the 70s 3B.   Nettles, Bando, Money, Hebner, Petrocelli, etc, etc.    They were all the same guy.  .250-.270, 18-25 homers.   Essentially Beltre the first 11 years of his career.    HOF, my ***.

Right. There were no dominant offensive 3B. There were dominant offensive 1B and COFers.  And Nettles was a stud defensively.  That's the point.  You can make an argument that Nettles was the best 3B of his generation next to George Brett. Great-hitting 3B don't grow on trees.
And it's exactly what Beltre was for a dozen seasons.   In an era of heavy hitting.    He was not a "great" hitter for the vast majority of his career.  He was Richie Hebner or Sal Bando. 
Now he's a dominant player.  And Beltre wants credit for 2004.  11 seasons of Sal Bando.
He can have credit for 2004.   He's still Sal Bando. 

He's a different hitter now.   Will he maintain the same level for the next few years?   

I thought the debate centered on his HOF-worthiness right now.    He's about 450 hits short of HOF status, IMO.   Is it reasonable to assume he'll get them?  Probably.   But, three years ago, didn't we all think A-Rod would pass Bonds in HR?
7/29/2014 4:01 PM
Right now, I think he's probably in.  The defense helps.  Top 6 or 7 3B of all-time.

If he had these 4-5 great seasons when he was 27-31, I think we're having a different conversation.
7/29/2014 4:02 PM

I don't think there's any way in hell he gets in without 3k hits. 

7/29/2014 4:11 PM
His slash line is WORSE than Aramis Ramirez (.285/.344./498 vs. .284/.334/.480) over the identical time frame.

That puts Ramirez in the top 5 or 6 all-time!!!!!!
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