All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Adrian Beltre
7/29/2014 4:36 PM
Oh, one other guy has better slash numbers that Ramirez and Beltre over roughly the same years.  He played on playoff contending teams most of his career, and probably lost a couple of years to injury, but still outperformed Beltre to the tune of 122 OPS+ vs. Beltre's 115 OPS+

Scott Rolen
7/29/2014 4:36 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 7/29/2014 4:11:00 PM (view original):
His slash line is WORSE than Aramis Ramirez (.285/.344./498 vs. .284/.334/.480) over the identical time frame.

That puts Ramirez in the top 5 or 6 all-time!!!!!!
Defense is kind of a big factor in the difference between the two.

But you knew that already, right?
7/29/2014 4:40 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 7/29/2014 4:36:00 PM (view original):
Oh, one other guy has better slash numbers that Ramirez and Beltre over roughly the same years.  He played on playoff contending teams most of his career, and probably lost a couple of years to injury, but still outperformed Beltre to the tune of 122 OPS+ vs. Beltre's 115 OPS+

Scott Rolen
I'd consider Rolen a borderline candidate for the Hall of Fame.
7/29/2014 4:42 PM
But if Beltre is in the "top 6 or 7 all-time", that would put Ramirez solidly in the top 10 all-time.  

Aside from the fact that Beltre is only in the top-10 all-time IF he maintains his current level for three or four more years.

If he had a career-ending injury this year, he would only get into the HOF with a ticket.
7/29/2014 4:49 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 7/29/2014 4:42:00 PM (view original):
But if Beltre is in the "top 6 or 7 all-time", that would put Ramirez solidly in the top 10 all-time.  

Aside from the fact that Beltre is only in the top-10 all-time IF he maintains his current level for three or four more years.

If he had a career-ending injury this year, he would only get into the HOF with a ticket.
Right now, Beltre is easily a top 10 (I'd say top 5 or 6) 3rd baseman all time.
7/29/2014 4:50 PM
Ramirez is no where near the top 10 all time. There's a big difference between the two.
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7/29/2014 4:52 PM
Is it possible that he could be top 10 3B of all-time and still not be a HOFer?
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7/29/2014 5:44 PM
Isn't that just a long-winded version of "small hall" vs "more inclusive hall" argument?

FWIW, I've not been disagreeing that the general populace looks at 3B production more like 1B/LF/RF production.   They do.   Whether or not that's fair, I'm not sure.   But "strong D up the middle, hitting on the corners" has been around for years.   I've been arguing that 3B is not a "defensive position" and that said term may not even exist anymore.  I think more teams look at it as a plus/minus game.   I've used several examples of modern ballplayers that I don't think play 2B/SS 30-40 years ago.  IMO, 3B is a more neutral position in terms of offensive/defensive value.   And the production over the last 60 years puts them squarely in the middle.

Anyway, to reiterate the point of Beltre = No Hall, he had 11 "Sal Bando" years and, since moving to hitter's parks, he's come alive at the plate.  Is TX/BOS the same as COL, probably not.   But I think COL hitters have been punished for playing in COL. 
7/29/2014 6:01 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/29/2014 4:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 7/29/2014 4:42:00 PM (view original):
But if Beltre is in the "top 6 or 7 all-time", that would put Ramirez solidly in the top 10 all-time.  

Aside from the fact that Beltre is only in the top-10 all-time IF he maintains his current level for three or four more years.

If he had a career-ending injury this year, he would only get into the HOF with a ticket.
Same question I've asked everyone else maintaining this position: can you name 10 3B who had better careers than Beltre RIGHT NOW?  You said Beltre needs 3 or 4 more years to make it into the top 10, meaning he should be comfortably outside right now.  Who are your 10?
I'm saying Scott Rolen and Aramis Ramirez are comparable players.  Are you saying that they're top-ten?

Basically, you're looking at players who started after 1994 and put up similar numbers (Rolen, Ramirez, Beltre, IN THAT ORDER)

Oh, and Schmidt, Chipper, Mathews, Brett, Rosen, Dick Allen, Killebrew, Darrell Evans, Brooksie, Boggs, and HomeRun Baker would come before ALL THREE of those guys.  And that's off the top of my head.

Beltre is in the second tier of career 3B with Rolen, Ramirez, Santo, Cey, Bell...  Just because there aren't a lot of 3B in the HOF, doesn't mean they should lower the bar.  Hell, it was bad enough they let Maz in....



And David Wright is better (and younger)
7/29/2014 6:07 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 7/29/2014 6:01:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/29/2014 4:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 7/29/2014 4:42:00 PM (view original):
But if Beltre is in the "top 6 or 7 all-time", that would put Ramirez solidly in the top 10 all-time.  

Aside from the fact that Beltre is only in the top-10 all-time IF he maintains his current level for three or four more years.

If he had a career-ending injury this year, he would only get into the HOF with a ticket.
Same question I've asked everyone else maintaining this position: can you name 10 3B who had better careers than Beltre RIGHT NOW?  You said Beltre needs 3 or 4 more years to make it into the top 10, meaning he should be comfortably outside right now.  Who are your 10?
I'm saying Scott Rolen and Aramis Ramirez are comparable players.  Are you saying that they're top-ten?

Basically, you're looking at players who started after 1994 and put up similar numbers (Rolen, Ramirez, Beltre, IN THAT ORDER)

Oh, and Schmidt, Chipper, Mathews, Brett, Rosen, Dick Allen, Killebrew, Darrell Evans, Brooksie, Boggs, and HomeRun Baker would come before ALL THREE of those guys.  And that's off the top of my head.

Beltre is in the second tier of career 3B with Rolen, Ramirez, Santo, Cey, Bell...  Just because there aren't a lot of 3B in the HOF, doesn't mean they should lower the bar.  Hell, it was bad enough they let Maz in....



And David Wright is better (and younger)
Wow:
"(Rolen, Ramirez, Beltre, IN THAT ORDER)"

You're either incredibly uninformed or trolling.



7/30/2014 12:06 AM
beltre == haller
7/30/2014 8:03 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/29/2014 4:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by toddcommish on 7/29/2014 4:36:00 PM (view original):
Oh, one other guy has better slash numbers that Ramirez and Beltre over roughly the same years.  He played on playoff contending teams most of his career, and probably lost a couple of years to injury, but still outperformed Beltre to the tune of 122 OPS+ vs. Beltre's 115 OPS+

Scott Rolen
I'd consider Rolen a borderline candidate for the Hall of Fame.
Kenny Lofton is happy to hear that he's not alone.
7/30/2014 8:10 AM
If Rolen even sniffs the Hof, Cooperstown should be Nagasakied, or Gazaed
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