All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > HOF makes first rule change in 30 years.
7/30/2014 8:30 PM
Their votes are made at their discretion.   Steroids is a good example.   Some have no problem, others will never vote for anyone connected to PED.   If they were "abiding" by precedent, Bonds and Clemens are 99% guys because their numbers dictate it.    There is no written guideline on PED use or how to vote for those who are suspected of use.   No one is "abiding" by ****.
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7/30/2014 8:35 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2014 8:27:00 PM (view original):
Or antonym.  I'm too lazy to look it up.   But they have the opposite meaning. 
Wow.
7/30/2014 8:41 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/30/2014 8:34:00 PM (view original):
There is no precedent for how to deal with guys with PED suspensions, confessions, or suspicions.  That's why they've been so divisive.
Writers are given guidelines and vote for who they choose at their discretion.   There are no guidelines that they must abide by when they vote.   No one loses their vote when they refuse to vote for Gred Maddux because he's not Babe Ruth.


Just admit you ****** up and move on.    It won't hurt too long.

7/30/2014 8:41 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/30/2014 8:30:00 PM (view original):
Their votes are made at their discretion.   Steroids is a good example.   Some have no problem, others will never vote for anyone connected to PED.   If they were "abiding" by precedent, Bonds and Clemens are 99% guys because their numbers dictate it.    There is no written guideline on PED use or how to vote for those who are suspected of use.   No one is "abiding" by ****.
You're still missing the point.

The standards for the Hall have been established. The question is, does the player meet those standards. That's the part that's open to voter discretion. If you want to argue that Beltre's production is below that of the average Hall of Famer at his position, fine. I'll disagree and we'll each present our evidence.

What's incorrect is to say, "sure he's better than 9 of the current 15 3rd basemen in, but I don't think he belongs." That makes no sense.
7/30/2014 9:26 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/30/2014 7:41:00 PM (view original):
I would say that I know you aren't that stupid, but I'm having increasingly substantial doubts...

Those statements are not incongruous at all.
I call "bullshit" on you.

Those two statements are completely incongruous.

The correct answer, of course, was your one from yesterday.  Voters can vote for anybody they wish for on the ballot, regardless of standards or precedent.

As evidence, I'll present the 16 voters who did not vote for Greg Maddux on the most recent ballot, and the 1 voter who threw a vote at Jacque Jones.

If I felt like it, I could give you literally HUNDREDS of similar examples of voters not applying standards or precedent.

7/31/2014 9:04 AM
Yeah but they took away the voting rights of the guy who put Jacque Jones on the ballot, right?   After all, he did not abide by the precedent that had been set for HOF admission. 
7/31/2014 9:17 AM

BBWAA ELECTION RULES

1. Authorization: By authorization of the Board of Directors of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc., the Baseball Writers' Association of America (BBWAA) is authorized to hold an election every year for the purpose of electing members to the National Baseball Hall of Fame from the ranks of retired baseball players.

2. Electors: Only active and honorary members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America, who have been active baseball writers for at least ten (10) years, shall be eligible to vote. They must have been active as baseball writers and members of the Association for a period beginning at least ten (10) years prior to the date of election in which they are voting.

3. Eligible Candidates -- Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

     A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.

     B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).

     C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.

     D. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.

     E. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

4. Method of Election:

     A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six members, with two members to be elected at each Annual Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.

     B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.

     C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

6. Automatic Elections: No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted.

7. Time of Election: The duly authorized representatives of the BBWAA shall prepare, date and mail ballots to each elector no later than the 15th day of January in each year in which an election is held. The elector shall sign and return the completed ballot within twenty (20) days. The vote shall then be tabulated by the duly authorized representatives of the BBWAA.

8. Certification of Election Results: The results of the election shall be certified by a representative of the Baseball Writers' Association of America and an officer of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc. The results shall be transmitted to the Commissioner of Baseball. The BBWAA and National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc. shall jointly release the results for publication.

9. Amendments: The Board of Directors of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc. reserves the right to revoke, alter or amend these rules at any time.

7/31/2014 9:20 AM
I'll be honest, I don't see anything that even resembles an edict to "abide by the productin standards that have been set by previous HOF elections" anywhere in there.   Perhaps one of these smart fellas will point it out to me.    Otherwise, I'm going to assume voters use their discretion when casting their ballot. 
7/31/2014 9:27 AM
Item 4.A.(2): "are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee".

I can imagine the Screening Committee meeting going like this:

Two member of the committee agree to put Jacque Jones on the ballot, and start joking about how some dumbass voter will cast a ballot with JJ's name checked.

BL and Dahs, two other members of the screening committee, very seriously insist that that will never happen, because the voters are bound to follow established standards and precedents.

After a moment of stunned silence, the other four members of the committee are brought to tears by their laughter while BL and Dahs look on, confused about what's so funny.
7/31/2014 9:31 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/31/2014 9:27:00 AM (view original):
Item 4.A.(2): "are eligible for the first time and are nominated by any two of the six members of the BBWAA Screening Committee".

I can imagine the Screening Committee meeting going like this:

Two member of the committee agree to put Jacque Jones on the ballot, and start joking about how some dumbass voter will cast a ballot with JJ's name checked.

BL and Dahs, two other members of the screening committee, very seriously insist that that will never happen, because the voters are bound to follow established standards and precedents.

After a moment of stunned silence, the other four members of the committee are brought to tears by their laughter while BL and Dahs look on, confused about what's so funny.
7/31/2014 9:44 AM
As a side track, in looking at the election rules:

If Pete Rose were to be reinstated, it seems that rule 3.A would still exclude him from being eligible to be elected by the BBWAA, as he would not have been an active player within the past 20 years.

7/31/2014 12:46 PM
Of course there is no actual rule defining the standards. The standards are evident based on who has been elected already.

There are 14 Hall of Fame third basement (if you count Chipper Jones). If you want to make the argument that 9 of them don't belong, I'll listen. It's an interesting argument.

But, as dahs already pointed out, suddenly tightening the standards makes no sense and defeats the purpose of the Hall of Fame, leaving us with a Hall full of players from the turn of the century and early 1900's and very few guys from modern times.

If Robinson, Santo, Molitor, Baker, Collins, Mcgraw, Traynor, Kell, Lindstrom are in, then Beltre should also be in because he's arguably better than all of those guys.


7/31/2014 1:04 PM (edited)
"suddenly tightening the standards makes no sense and defeats the purpose of the Hall of Fame".

That's a ****-poor argument.

Essentially, what you're saying is that it makes no sense to close the barn door once the horse has escaped.  Yet you're ignoring the fact we're possibly putting new horses in the barn every year with each new HOF election.  I want the damn door closed for next time.

Doubling down on bad decisions is not a very good approach.  If fact, it's downright stupid.  One can even say it provides low marginal utility.
7/31/2014 1:14 PM
The ol' "Billy Bob is in and Jimmy Jay was better.   Therefore, we have to let Jimmy Jay in" argument.     Completely ignoring that Billy Bob should have never been allowed in.
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