All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > HOF makes first rule change in 30 years.
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7/28/2014 10:04 PM
According to one of your sacred stats
OPS+
I can name 64
And that's not counting ARod
7/28/2014 10:15 PM
Who said OPS+ was sacred? I don't think anyone would argue that one offensive stat is a great way to evaluate an entire career.

And Arod is better but I usually count him as a shortstop.
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7/29/2014 7:59 AM
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/28/2014 6:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cobra on 7/28/2014 4:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/28/2014 4:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cobra on 7/28/2014 4:23:00 PM (view original):
You know all the young sabermetricians are impressed with not swinging a bat.
I thought you left.  You sound a lot less stupid when you shut up.
That was the Beltre thread when you guys started throwing around the phrase

One of the greatest of all time

I can't compete with that type of thinking
List 10 3B in the history of baseball who had better careers than Beltre.
Mike Schmidt
George Brett
Wade Boggs
Chipper Jones
Brooks Robinson
Eddie Mathews
Pie Traynor
Frank Baker
Judy Johnson
Eddie Collins

7/29/2014 8:44 AM
Can we just say he's been a guy who showed up every day since he was 19, getting 500-700 PA and 150-170 hits, who never really stood out(save for one contract year) for 12 seasons?   Then, once moving to a more hitter friendly park, he's put together 4+ outstanding seasons?

Does that really sound like a HOFer?

I think I figured it out.   He's the hitting version of Bert Blyleven.   Grinds out a career and puts up pretty good compiled numbers.  If you think BB is a HOFer, you'll want Beltre in. 
7/29/2014 9:14 AM
HOG - Hall of Grinders
7/29/2014 9:46 AM
As I pointed out in the Beltre thread . . . . did ANYBODY ever think of Beltre as a potential HOFer when he was 10-12 years into his career?

Shouldn't that be part of the litmus test . . . .consistency of high performance over the length of a career?

7/29/2014 11:37 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2014 7:59:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/28/2014 6:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cobra on 7/28/2014 4:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/28/2014 4:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by cobra on 7/28/2014 4:23:00 PM (view original):
You know all the young sabermetricians are impressed with not swinging a bat.
I thought you left.  You sound a lot less stupid when you shut up.
That was the Beltre thread when you guys started throwing around the phrase

One of the greatest of all time

I can't compete with that type of thinking
List 10 3B in the history of baseball who had better careers than Beltre.
Mike Schmidt
George Brett
Wade Boggs
Chipper Jones
Brooks Robinson
Eddie Mathews
Pie Traynor
Frank Baker
Judy Johnson
Eddie Collins

Pie Traynor? He has an OPS+ of 107 and 58 career home runs. 36 career WAR. Easily NOT better than Beltre.

Frank Baker? I'm assuming you're talking about Home Run Baker? This is closer than Traynor but he's a turn of the century player that is not better than Beltre. His OPS+ is boosted by triples. I'd put that on the bad defense of the early 1900's than his skill. In the last 30 years there have been exactly 5 seasons of 20 or more triples by a player. From 1900-1930 there were 50.

Judy Johnson was not a major league baseball player.

Eddie Collins was a 2nd baseman.

So, by your list, Beltre ranks 7th all time. I think an argument could be made for Beltre ahead of Robinson, especially if he has another couple seasons like the one he's having now.
7/29/2014 12:00 PM
Judy Johnson was a negro leaguer, and nothing about his stats suggest he was a HOF-quality player.  He probably made the HOF because he was the first African-American to coach ML baseball.

So, yea.
7/29/2014 12:28 PM
Pie Traynor is generally regarded as one of the best, if not the best, third basemen during the era in which he played.

Ditto for Home Run Baker.  Dismissing his 135 career OPS+ due to "bad defense" is quite disingenuous on your part.

Judy Johnson was also considered one of the best third basemen in the hostory of the Negro Leagues.  Another disingenuous argument on your part to dismiss him.

My bad on Eddie Collins, that was a typo.  Should have been Jimmy Collins.

7/29/2014 12:49 PM
I shouldn't, but I'll ask - what makes Collins, Johnson and Traynor better 3B than Beltre?
7/29/2014 12:53 PM
racists!
7/29/2014 12:57 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2014 12:28:00 PM (view original):
Pie Traynor is generally regarded as one of the best, if not the best, third basemen during the era in which he played.

Ditto for Home Run Baker.  Dismissing his 135 career OPS+ due to "bad defense" is quite disingenuous on your part.

Judy Johnson was also considered one of the best third basemen in the hostory of the Negro Leagues.  Another disingenuous argument on your part to dismiss him.

My bad on Eddie Collins, that was a typo.  Should have been Jimmy Collins.

Pie Traynor is not better than Beltre by ANY measure. 

Let's talk about Baker. He had a 135 OPS+. Do you think OPS+ is a good way to evaluate offense? I seem to remember you flipping the **** out when someone pointed out that Rick Monday and Bernie Williams had the same OPS+. Are we cool to use it always or only when it is convenient to your argument?

I think Home Run Baker is probably the closest of these guys to Beltre. And it's still a pretty big gap. Baker hit 96 home runs over 13 seasons. His .363 OBP is nice but that's really the only thing he has on Beltre. Beltre is better by about 15 wins and still has a couple years left.

Judy Johnson was didn't play in the major leagues. I have no idea how good he was. Neither do you.

Nothing about Jimmy Collins career (1895-1908) suggests he was better than Beltre. Why do you think he's better?

You're grasping at straws. If Beltre was so clearly not a Hall of Famer, it would very easy to make a significant list of players better than him at his position.
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