All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > HOF makes first rule change in 30 years.
7/29/2014 1:11 PM
Sez the King of bad faith arguments.

Fine, you don't like OPS+ . . . let's go to your precious WAR, ************!!!

Frank Baker had a career 62.8 WAR, ************!!! over 13 seasons (including partial seasons, one being VERY partial at 9 games).  That's an average of 4.8 WAR, ************!!! per season.

Adrian Beltre has a career 74.9 WAR, ************!!!! over 17 seasons (including two partial seasons).  That's an average of 4.4 WAR ************!!! per season.  That's 0.4 less WAR, ************!!! per season for Beltre, despite averaging playing 18 MORE games a season than Baker.

Edge . . . Baker.

Oh . . . and do you really want to hold it against Baker that he hit so few home runs in the ******* DEAD BALL ERA?  Are youi really that retarded?  (No, don't answer . . . that was a rhetorical question).
7/29/2014 1:12 PM
WAR, ************!!!!
7/29/2014 1:22 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 12:50:00 PM (view original):
I shouldn't, but I'll ask - what makes Collins, Johnson and Traynor better 3B than Beltre?
So...nothing.
7/29/2014 1:28 PM
FWIW, I'm cool with the Baker > Beltre argument.
7/29/2014 1:37 PM
LOL.  Anyone ever say "Adrian Home Run Beltre"?   You know why?   He wasn't the most prominent HR hitter in his era.  Baker was.

That might be the most retarded thing BL has ever posted.
7/29/2014 1:43 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 1:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 12:50:00 PM (view original):
I shouldn't, but I'll ask - what makes Collins, Johnson and Traynor better 3B than Beltre?
So...nothing.
As I previously mentioned, Pie Traynor was generally regarded as one of the best third basemen in the history of the game through the first hundred years of MLB.  In 1969, in observance of MLB's Centennial, he was named as the third baseman on MLB's all-time team.  Only one third baseman in history (Schmidt, with 9) has had more 100 RBI seasons that Traynor's 7.

Beltre, on the other hand, had quite a non-extraordinary career, save for one huge season in '04 , for his first 12 seasons in MLB.  Before he moved to hitter friendly parks, nobody ever thought of Beltre as HOF material.  You'd be lying if you or BL said you did.

7/29/2014 1:57 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2014 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 1:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 12:50:00 PM (view original):
I shouldn't, but I'll ask - what makes Collins, Johnson and Traynor better 3B than Beltre?
So...nothing.
As I previously mentioned, Pie Traynor was generally regarded as one of the best third basemen in the history of the game through the first hundred years of MLB.  In 1969, in observance of MLB's Centennial, he was named as the third baseman on MLB's all-time team.  Only one third baseman in history (Schmidt, with 9) has had more 100 RBI seasons that Traynor's 7.

Beltre, on the other hand, had quite a non-extraordinary career, save for one huge season in '04 , for his first 12 seasons in MLB.  Before he moved to hitter friendly parks, nobody ever thought of Beltre as HOF material.  You'd be lying if you or BL said you did.

That's a fine argument re: Taylor.  It's an argument, I suppose, of perception vs stats.  It's a Hall of Fame, so if you're considered one of the best, great, even if his stats don't exactly look the part.

If Beltre started his career with the numbers he's had in Texas, and then had his Dodger and Mariner numbers, I feel like you'd be more accepting of him making the HOF.  And yes, he's become bit of a compiler.

That said, he's ahead of Johnson and Collins. 
7/29/2014 2:08 PM (edited)
Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2014 1:11:00 PM (view original):
Sez the King of bad faith arguments.

Fine, you don't like OPS+ . . . let's go to your precious WAR, ************!!!

Frank Baker had a career 62.8 WAR, ************!!! over 13 seasons (including partial seasons, one being VERY partial at 9 games).  That's an average of 4.8 WAR, ************!!! per season.

Adrian Beltre has a career 74.9 WAR, ************!!!! over 17 seasons (including two partial seasons).  That's an average of 4.4 WAR ************!!! per season.  That's 0.4 less WAR, ************!!! per season for Beltre, despite averaging playing 18 MORE games a season than Baker.

Edge . . . Baker.

Oh . . . and do you really want to hold it against Baker that he hit so few home runs in the ******* DEAD BALL ERA?  Are youi really that retarded?  (No, don't answer . . . that was a rhetorical question).
Nothing bad faith about it.

I like OPS+. I think it's a great way to evaluate offense. But I don't think we should ever rely on just one stat, including WAR, if we want to make an in depth comparison. Unlike you, I don't dismiss a stat as ridiculous when it doesn't tell me what I want to hear.

Beltre's walk rate and, by extension, his OPS and OPS+ is his one real weakness. I seem to remember you agreeing with mike when he argued that it's a bad thing when a middle of the order hitter walks a lot, but that's beside the point (and incorrect).

Regarding WAR, it's a cumulative stat for a reason, Beltre played longer and provided more production, that's a good thing. Pro-rating it down makes no sense.

Like I said before, Baker is the closest to Beltre of the four. But I don't think he's better. It's hard to compare a turn of the century player to a modern one and, even if we agree for the sake of argument that he's better, that still puts Beltre 8th all time. Worthy, in my book.
7/29/2014 2:05 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 1:37:00 PM (view original):
LOL.  Anyone ever say "Adrian Home Run Beltre"?   You know why?   He wasn't the most prominent HR hitter in his era.  Baker was.

That might be the most retarded thing BL has ever posted.
No one quoted me.

Good to know you're still reading my posts.
7/29/2014 2:22 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 1:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2014 1:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 1:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 12:50:00 PM (view original):
I shouldn't, but I'll ask - what makes Collins, Johnson and Traynor better 3B than Beltre?
So...nothing.
As I previously mentioned, Pie Traynor was generally regarded as one of the best third basemen in the history of the game through the first hundred years of MLB.  In 1969, in observance of MLB's Centennial, he was named as the third baseman on MLB's all-time team.  Only one third baseman in history (Schmidt, with 9) has had more 100 RBI seasons that Traynor's 7.

Beltre, on the other hand, had quite a non-extraordinary career, save for one huge season in '04 , for his first 12 seasons in MLB.  Before he moved to hitter friendly parks, nobody ever thought of Beltre as HOF material.  You'd be lying if you or BL said you did.

That's a fine argument re: Taylor.  It's an argument, I suppose, of perception vs stats.  It's a Hall of Fame, so if you're considered one of the best, great, even if his stats don't exactly look the part.

If Beltre started his career with the numbers he's had in Texas, and then had his Dodger and Mariner numbers, I feel like you'd be more accepting of him making the HOF.  And yes, he's become bit of a compiler.

That said, he's ahead of Johnson and Collins. 
"A bit of a compiler"?

That's exactly what he is.   There's value to that.   Not a lot of guys get to be compilers.    I just don't think "compiler" = "Hall of Famer".   If he'd had a few more 2004s, maybe I'd look at him differently.
7/29/2014 2:35 PM
Here's Beltre's first 12 years of his career:

Adrian Beltre Batting Stats for Years 1998 to 2009

Year Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
1998-2009 LAD,SEA 1681 6877 6285 828 1700 348 26 250 906 111 38 478 1084 .270 .325 .453 .779 105 2850 153 53 14 47 55
Average 140 573 524 69 142 29 2 21 76 9 3 40 90           238 13 4 1 4 5
per 162 games 162 661 604 80 164 34 3 24 87 11 4 46 105           274 15 6 2 5 6


7/29/2014 2:36 PM
(yawn)
7/29/2014 2:37 PM
Take away the one outlier season, those numbers are less impressive.

7/29/2014 2:46 PM
I think the HOF looks at an entire career.  I think.
7/29/2014 2:51 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2014 2:35:00 PM (view original):
Here's Beltre's first 12 years of his career:

Adrian Beltre Batting Stats for Years 1998 to 2009

Year Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
1998-2009 LAD,SEA 1681 6877 6285 828 1700 348 26 250 906 111 38 478 1084 .270 .325 .453 .779 105 2850 153 53 14 47 55
Average 140 573 524 69 142 29 2 21 76 9 3 40 90           238 13 4 1 4 5
per 162 games 162 661 604 80 164 34 3 24 87 11 4 46 105           274 15 6 2 5 6


Why stop at 2009?

From 2010 on he's hit:

.315/.359/.541 with a 138 OPS+ and 141 home runs. He's put up over 30 WAR from 2010 to now.

You're cutting out some of his best years.
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