All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > HOF makes first rule change in 30 years.
7/29/2014 2:52 PM
Talk about bad faith arguments.
7/29/2014 2:55 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/29/2014 2:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2014 2:35:00 PM (view original):
Here's Beltre's first 12 years of his career:

Adrian Beltre Batting Stats for Years 1998 to 2009

Year Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
1998-2009 LAD,SEA 1681 6877 6285 828 1700 348 26 250 906 111 38 478 1084 .270 .325 .453 .779 105 2850 153 53 14 47 55
Average 140 573 524 69 142 29 2 21 76 9 3 40 90           238 13 4 1 4 5
per 162 games 162 661 604 80 164 34 3 24 87 11 4 46 105           274 15 6 2 5 6


Why stop at 2009?

From 2010 on he's hit:

.315/.359/.541 with a 138 OPS+ and 141 home runs. He's put up over 30 WAR from 2010 to now.

You're cutting out some of his best years.
This is the opposite of compiling, by the way. This is playing at a super star level into your mid-30s.
7/29/2014 2:55 PM
Who put this guy in the HOF?

Sandy Koufax Pitching Stats for Years 1955 to 1961

Year Tm W L   ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB IBB SO HBP BK WP BF ERA+ FIP WHIP H9 HR9 BB9 SO9 SO/W
1955-1961 BRO,LAD 54 53 .505 3.94 216 138 39 37 7 5 947.1 795 464 415 115 501 24 952 8 6 51 4102 105 3.69 1.368 7.6 1.1 4.8 9.0 1.90
Average 8 8     31 20 6 5 1 1 135 114 66 59 16 72 3 136 1 1 7 586                
per 162 games 11 11     42 27 8 8 2 1 182 153 90 80 23 97 5 183 2 2 10 788                
 
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7/29/2014 3:06 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 7/29/2014 2:51:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2014 2:35:00 PM (view original):
Here's Beltre's first 12 years of his career:

Adrian Beltre Batting Stats for Years 1998 to 2009

Year Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
1998-2009 LAD,SEA 1681 6877 6285 828 1700 348 26 250 906 111 38 478 1084 .270 .325 .453 .779 105 2850 153 53 14 47 55
Average 140 573 524 69 142 29 2 21 76 9 3 40 90           238 13 4 1 4 5
per 162 games 162 661 604 80 164 34 3 24 87 11 4 46 105           274 15 6 2 5 6


Why stop at 2009?

From 2010 on he's hit:

.315/.359/.541 with a 138 OPS+ and 141 home runs. He's put up over 30 WAR from 2010 to now.

You're cutting out some of his best years.
My point is that a long career that is mostly average with a few peak years does not a HOFer make.  Beltre compiled 1700 hits and 250 HRs over a 12 year stretch of "slightly above average".

The same argument can be made about Koufax,; in fact, I'd argue that his non-peak years were worse than Beltre's.  If one wanted to make an argument that Koufax did not have a big enough sustained and successful body of work to make the HOF, they could probably make a reasonable case.  He was only a quality pitcher for six out of his twelve seasons.

7/29/2014 3:08 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 2:46:00 PM (view original):
I think the HOF looks at an entire career.  I think.
Pretty sure Beltre's career isn't over.   If it was, he's not a HOFer. 
7/29/2014 3:11 PM
My point is that a long career that is mostly average with a few peak years does not a HOFer make.


Where is this written?
7/29/2014 3:12 PM
Posted by stinenavy on 7/29/2014 3:11:00 PM (view original):
My point is that a long career that is mostly average with a few peak years does not a HOFer make.


Where is this written?
Two posts above yours.  The one that you quoted.
7/29/2014 3:13 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 7/29/2014 3:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 7/29/2014 2:46:00 PM (view original):
I think the HOF looks at an entire career.  I think.
Pretty sure Beltre's career isn't over.   If it was, he's not a HOFer. 
This is part 2 of the problem.

You're assuming he will get another 450+ hits.   If he does, he's in the HOF.    I've already said this.   But he's a compiler with half a career, probably more, of non-descript production.
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7/29/2014 3:29 PM
Posted by stinenavy on 7/29/2014 3:11:00 PM (view original):
My point is that a long career that is mostly average with a few peak years does not a HOFer make.


Where is this written?
Yeah, I don't think that's a rule.

Beltre has put up 46 WAR over his seven best years. Compare that to:

39 for Paul Molitor
46 for Brooks Robinson
58 for Mike Schmidt
46 for Chipper Jones
46 for Ryne Sandberg
49 for Rod Carew
51 for Joe Dimaggio
50 for Duke Snider
46 for Reggie Jackson
41 for Tony Gwynn
37 for Dave Winfield
44 for Pete Rose
39 for Eddie Murray

I could go on. Maybe you don't think a couple of those guys belong in the Hall but Beltre's peak was obviously Hall worthy.

Compiler implies that a guy was never dominant, that his peak was small, and that just hanging around got him to benchmarks. None of that applies to Beltre.

His peak was(is) high. He is the best third baseman in baseball, right this minute, at age 35. There's no reason to believe he won't be good next season and probably very productive the season after that.

7/29/2014 3:35 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 7/29/2014 3:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 7/29/2014 3:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by stinenavy on 7/29/2014 3:11:00 PM (view original):
My point is that a long career that is mostly average with a few peak years does not a HOFer make.


Where is this written?
Two posts above yours.  The one that you quoted.
Sorry, we didn't realize that you established the rules for what qualifies a player for the Hall of Fame.  My understanding was that there were no explicit instructions for this, and it was at the discretion of each individual voter to determine what made a player worthy or unworthy.

Fortunately, most of them aren't stubborn enough that they'd rather say "maybe Sandy Koufax wasn't a Hall of Famer" than abandon their absurdly stupid original argument.

I guess you didn't get the memo.    tec took over for BL as arbiter of HOF-quality last week.   Want me to email you a copy?
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7/29/2014 4:08 PM
If I valued your baseball evaluation skills, that would mean something.   Care to guess why it doesn't?
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