Since my name was injected in previous discussions I will add in once again. I believe there are two points being argued here. 1) Whether collusion is cheating and 2) Whether those colluding derive an advantage.

My responses:

1) The sharing of information in the same Division in any form which would benefit the coaches involved at the detriment to any other team is WRONG. I have at times, communicated with coaches at San Diego State (D1A) when I was at USD (D1AA) to see which local guys they wanted and didn't want. If this was wrong - cuff me now.

2) Over the long term, unless coaches are specifically targeting a specific school or coach, I don't feel that the advantage of sharing the best players locally would pay off. You split the talent pool and don't attempt to get the better players, I don't see that that promotes a better recruiting class over time. You won't battle for all of them anyway.

And I have not won a D1A title (except in Beta). Seems that at D1A, unless you can land an Elite, the game is staked against you. (It would be interesting to see what % of NC's are won by elites vs other schools.)

Thanks for listening.

Posted by johnnyf on 1/31/2015 6:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dublinuf on 1/31/2015 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by johnnyf on 1/31/2015 4:38:00 PM (view original):
The rest of your posts Dub is really just lashing out and name calling, but to answer three points:
First point: If you think I'm wrong and not willing to understand, a troll etc, then so is Katz(to varying degrees). But you've only responded to me which is just absurd. So, please include Katz in your ridiculous "you're trolling and blah blah blah" or you're just attempting to be a bully instead of staying on point.   

Second point: Just because some of the schools I brought up were Sims doesn't make me a troll. Or wrong. That's still multiple human run teams nearby that would be interested in recruits. If this is the best retort you could muster, then I don't see the point in continuing this with you. Especially if you're just going to name call. 

Third point: You said "show me a world, any world where FSU goes to Texas and the Northeast to battle for recruits. That world doesn't exist." Well....
Florida State in Camp recent recruits from:
Fresno, CA
Watsonville, CA
Cicero, NY
San Antonio, TX
Oakland, Maine
Austin, MN

So, you're wrong. Hey, lets do another Southeastern region power team. Miami, with recent recruits from...
Lafayette, Indiana
Makawao, Hawaii
Miliani, Hawaii
Portland, Maine
Nashua, NH
Mena, Arkansas
Pikesville, KY
Kankakee, IL
Honolulu, Hawaii

How about a pac-12 team? Southern Cal
Pinson, Alabama
Coral Springs, FL
Nashville, TN
Wyndmoor, PA
Concord, Mass. 

And I can't even tell you where they fought for recruits and lost. So there you go. Teams won't just stay in their local area when recruiting. Which means that no one can hold off teams from recruits, even if they collude with other local teams. Which destroys your theory imo. 

This is enough to show you don't know what you are talking about. You do not have a clue of what you are even looking at.

Florida State does not have two recruits from California. They have two SIM walk ons. SIM walk ons are not available to sign by anyone else at any level. That's basic DIII recruiting, not DIA.

As I said in my other post, the other four players Florida State has represent one kicker (who cares) and three players that aren't as good as the other players on his team. I would add, he is not winning at an Elite level, either. Saying someone signs long distance recruits that he didn't have to battle over because they aren't very good is the same as signing stud players in other Elites back yard in long battles with them. I said show me a world that they go to the Northeast to BATTLE for recruits. Not to get leftovers.

I understand that you want to pretend people saying you don't understand the game is name calling. It isn't. You don't understand the math. You don't understand the basics like the one above. You are arguing things based on lack of knowledge of the recruiting process. You are just wrong. Telling me that I am calling you names and that we haven't shown you that you are wrong doesn't make it true. If you can't understand the math and the arguments presented to you, it is not the fault of the math.

*rollseyes* ok, calling me a troll isn't name calling, I got it. 

And as for FSU, one of those players has his 2nd highest total rating among DL, the LB has the highest total rating among his LBs, the DB is tied for fourth highest among his DBs(as a sophomore). These aren't leftovers no matter how you want to slice it. And you're still wrong. You just keep trying to move the goalposts when I prove you're wrong about a point. Its tiresome, especially when you just constantly lash out at me.  

Oh well, this would have been an interesting topic to actually discuss with someone with as much experience as you. Instead you were like most of the people on this board: a brat who pitches a fit when someone doesn't suck up to them or agree with them. Ive explained my case and your response to just act like a brat and declare me wrong sans any real proof. You aren't worth my time anymore. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And guess what: it doesn't matter who is right or wrong. But you're obsessed with adulation. 

johnnyf, don't try and argue with the colluding kings how do you think they have championships because they played the game fair?

Posted by katzphang88 on 1/31/2015 7:01:00 PM (view original):
Since my name was injected in previous discussions I will add in once again. I believe there are two points being argued here. 1) Whether collusion is cheating and 2) Whether those colluding derive an advantage.

My responses:

1) The sharing of information in the same Division in any form which would benefit the coaches involved at the detriment to any other team is WRONG. I have at times, communicated with coaches at San Diego State (D1A) when I was at USD (D1AA) to see which local guys they wanted and didn't want. If this was wrong - cuff me now.

2) Over the long term, unless coaches are specifically targeting a specific school or coach, I don't feel that the advantage of sharing the best players locally would pay off. You split the talent pool and don't attempt to get the better players, I don't see that that promotes a better recruiting class over time. You won't battle for all of them anyway.

And I have not won a D1A title (except in Beta). Seems that at D1A, unless you can land an Elite, the game is staked against you. (It would be interesting to see what % of NC's are won by elites vs other schools.)

Thanks for listening.

You see, that's a valid way to put that. I disagree, but you make a good point that one of those two teams colluding could have an even better team by not colluding. I agree on the point on Elites. Not impossible to win elsewhere, and slid64er won one with Navy, but certainly much harder for us mortals.

Posted by katzphang88 on 1/31/2015 7:01:00 PM (view original):
Since my name was injected in previous discussions I will add in once again. I believe there are two points being argued here. 1) Whether collusion is cheating and 2) Whether those colluding derive an advantage.

My responses:

1) The sharing of information in the same Division in any form which would benefit the coaches involved at the detriment to any other team is WRONG. I have at times, communicated with coaches at San Diego State (D1A) when I was at USD (D1AA) to see which local guys they wanted and didn't want. If this was wrong - cuff me now.

2) Over the long term, unless coaches are specifically targeting a specific school or coach, I don't feel that the advantage of sharing the best players locally would pay off. You split the talent pool and don't attempt to get the better players, I don't see that that promotes a better recruiting class over time. You won't battle for all of them anyway.

And I have not won a D1A title (except in Beta). Seems that at D1A, unless you can land an Elite, the game is staked against you. (It would be interesting to see what % of NC's are won by elites vs other schools.)

Thanks for listening.

I generally agree with your first point, and think that you-as a lesser school-wasn't colluding with the higher level team since you weren't looking for an unfair advantage. You weren't offering any sort of deal either. 

I completely agree with your second point. I only would add that any advantage gained would be minimal at best. That's what I disagree with. And I think you agree with that(you responded agreeing to this when I brought it up previously). 

And well played Pyt100. Well played. 

Posted by katzphang88 on 1/31/2015 7:01:00 PM (view original):
Since my name was injected in previous discussions I will add in once again. I believe there are two points being argued here. 1) Whether collusion is cheating and 2) Whether those colluding derive an advantage.

My responses:

1) The sharing of information in the same Division in any form which would benefit the coaches involved at the detriment to any other team is WRONG. I have at times, communicated with coaches at San Diego State (D1A) when I was at USD (D1AA) to see which local guys they wanted and didn't want. If this was wrong - cuff me now.

2) Over the long term, unless coaches are specifically targeting a specific school or coach, I don't feel that the advantage of sharing the best players locally would pay off. You split the talent pool and don't attempt to get the better players, I don't see that that promotes a better recruiting class over time. You won't battle for all of them anyway.

And I have not won a D1A title (except in Beta). Seems that at D1A, unless you can land an Elite, the game is staked against you. (It would be interesting to see what % of NC's are won by elites vs other schools.)

Thanks for listening.

Bringing out the handcuffs and the LA SWAT team.  Complete with tanks and heavy weapons.

I see the discussion example made in point number 1 as collusion, in its most basic, least harmful form.  My reasoning:  because knowing this info potentially allows the D1AA school to avoid wasting money going farther away, by knowing that they can go after a local guy for less money, and no worries about the D1A school coming in.   Since there is so much overlap at D1A and D1AA, to me its as if there is no separation at all between the divisions.

No one would have this discussion at D3 vs D2 because there is no overlap (very little)...therefore, no advantage to having the discussion.

Let me add:  I'm not the collusion police, but I will always give my opinion when I think it is necessary.

Posted by harriswb3 on 2/1/2015 6:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by katzphang88 on 1/31/2015 7:01:00 PM (view original):
Since my name was injected in previous discussions I will add in once again. I believe there are two points being argued here. 1) Whether collusion is cheating and 2) Whether those colluding derive an advantage.

My responses:

1) The sharing of information in the same Division in any form which would benefit the coaches involved at the detriment to any other team is WRONG. I have at times, communicated with coaches at San Diego State (D1A) when I was at USD (D1AA) to see which local guys they wanted and didn't want. If this was wrong - cuff me now.

2) Over the long term, unless coaches are specifically targeting a specific school or coach, I don't feel that the advantage of sharing the best players locally would pay off. You split the talent pool and don't attempt to get the better players, I don't see that that promotes a better recruiting class over time. You won't battle for all of them anyway.

And I have not won a D1A title (except in Beta). Seems that at D1A, unless you can land an Elite, the game is staked against you. (It would be interesting to see what % of NC's are won by elites vs other schools.)

Thanks for listening.

Bringing out the handcuffs and the LA SWAT team.  Complete with tanks and heavy weapons.

I see the discussion example made in point number 1 as collusion, in its most basic, least harmful form.  My reasoning:  because knowing this info potentially allows the D1AA school to avoid wasting money going farther away, by knowing that they can go after a local guy for less money, and no worries about the D1A school coming in.   Since there is so much overlap at D1A and D1AA, to me its as if there is no separation at all between the divisions.

No one would have this discussion at D3 vs D2 because there is no overlap (very little)...therefore, no advantage to having the discussion.

Let me add:  I'm not the collusion police, but I will always give my opinion when I think it is necessary.

I agree with Harris here. I think Katz knows we both have the utmost respect for him, but I too see this as collusion. Not to the extent we've seen many other cases, but just in a simple, relatively harmless form. 

For starters this is only my third season and I havent experienced collusion at the D3 or D2 levels to date, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in. I dont think any of us should be under any illusions-- this stuff happens in the real world as much or more as it happens in GD. The main problem from the perspective of this game is that recruiting can be such an art form (not to mention my favorite part of the game), and coaches who have done this 40+ times know exactly how to squeeze every ounce of talent out of their budgets through this game engine in a way that real coaches cant consistently do. In this way, two coaches working together can actually wreak pretty serious havoc on a specific opponent if they wish to do so in a way that is just not realistic in real college football. I converted from a fan of Michigan to a fan of Michigan State a few years ago, and I now despise the maize and blue. Do I think Mark Dantonio and Urban Meyer talk with one another about who to recruit in order to prevent them from going to Ann Arbor? Hell no, and I'm sorry, there's no defending that. 

I dont know where the line is drawn, but I do think that collusion has the potential to be a real problem with the way this game works, and we cant bullshit our way out of admitting that. 

From Merriam-Webster:

Collusion:  secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose

Hmmm...wondering about all this...and what you do with this one:

When Randy Moss was dismissed from the Notre Dame football team, Lou Holtz called his friend, Bobby Bowden, and told him he should give Moss a chance to start over with a clean slate at Florida State.  Collusion?

 

Posted by lvnwrth on 2/6/2015 9:45:00 AM (view original):

Hmmm...wondering about all this...and what you do with this one:

When Randy Moss was dismissed from the Notre Dame football team, Lou Holtz called his friend, Bobby Bowden, and told him he should give Moss a chance to start over with a clean slate at Florida State.  Collusion?

 

How would that be collusion? Nothing being agreed to here. 

The serious issues raised in this forum have caused me to take drastic action to protect the integrity of my teams.    We have retained the legal firm of Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe to review all correspondence related to this "game".    Please send all inquiries related to recruiting, players, team colors, football deflation, and mothers apple pie to that firm for a thorough legal review.

We have retained the firm of Sticka, Forkinem, Therdun:  Attorneys at Law.

Posted by pyt100 on 1/31/2015 7:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by johnnyf on 1/31/2015 6:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dublinuf on 1/31/2015 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by johnnyf on 1/31/2015 4:38:00 PM (view original):
The rest of your posts Dub is really just lashing out and name calling, but to answer three points:
First point: If you think I'm wrong and not willing to understand, a troll etc, then so is Katz(to varying degrees). But you've only responded to me which is just absurd. So, please include Katz in your ridiculous "you're trolling and blah blah blah" or you're just attempting to be a bully instead of staying on point.   

Second point: Just because some of the schools I brought up were Sims doesn't make me a troll. Or wrong. That's still multiple human run teams nearby that would be interested in recruits. If this is the best retort you could muster, then I don't see the point in continuing this with you. Especially if you're just going to name call. 

Third point: You said "show me a world, any world where FSU goes to Texas and the Northeast to battle for recruits. That world doesn't exist." Well....
Florida State in Camp recent recruits from:
Fresno, CA
Watsonville, CA
Cicero, NY
San Antonio, TX
Oakland, Maine
Austin, MN

So, you're wrong. Hey, lets do another Southeastern region power team. Miami, with recent recruits from...
Lafayette, Indiana
Makawao, Hawaii
Miliani, Hawaii
Portland, Maine
Nashua, NH
Mena, Arkansas
Pikesville, KY
Kankakee, IL
Honolulu, Hawaii

How about a pac-12 team? Southern Cal
Pinson, Alabama
Coral Springs, FL
Nashville, TN
Wyndmoor, PA
Concord, Mass. 

And I can't even tell you where they fought for recruits and lost. So there you go. Teams won't just stay in their local area when recruiting. Which means that no one can hold off teams from recruits, even if they collude with other local teams. Which destroys your theory imo. 

This is enough to show you don't know what you are talking about. You do not have a clue of what you are even looking at.

Florida State does not have two recruits from California. They have two SIM walk ons. SIM walk ons are not available to sign by anyone else at any level. That's basic DIII recruiting, not DIA.

As I said in my other post, the other four players Florida State has represent one kicker (who cares) and three players that aren't as good as the other players on his team. I would add, he is not winning at an Elite level, either. Saying someone signs long distance recruits that he didn't have to battle over because they aren't very good is the same as signing stud players in other Elites back yard in long battles with them. I said show me a world that they go to the Northeast to BATTLE for recruits. Not to get leftovers.

I understand that you want to pretend people saying you don't understand the game is name calling. It isn't. You don't understand the math. You don't understand the basics like the one above. You are arguing things based on lack of knowledge of the recruiting process. You are just wrong. Telling me that I am calling you names and that we haven't shown you that you are wrong doesn't make it true. If you can't understand the math and the arguments presented to you, it is not the fault of the math.

*rollseyes* ok, calling me a troll isn't name calling, I got it. 

And as for FSU, one of those players has his 2nd highest total rating among DL, the LB has the highest total rating among his LBs, the DB is tied for fourth highest among his DBs(as a sophomore). These aren't leftovers no matter how you want to slice it. And you're still wrong. You just keep trying to move the goalposts when I prove you're wrong about a point. Its tiresome, especially when you just constantly lash out at me.  

Oh well, this would have been an interesting topic to actually discuss with someone with as much experience as you. Instead you were like most of the people on this board: a brat who pitches a fit when someone doesn't suck up to them or agree with them. Ive explained my case and your response to just act like a brat and declare me wrong sans any real proof. You aren't worth my time anymore. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And guess what: it doesn't matter who is right or wrong. But you're obsessed with adulation. 

johnnyf, don't try and argue with the colluding kings how do you think they have championships because they played the game fair?

FWIW, I absolutely refuse to correspond with any coach during the recruiting process.  I've never done anything that could be construed as collusion -- even before WIS decided they needed to clarify the fair play guidelines.  GD has a mechanism to communicate your recruiting intentions with other coaches.  Use the appropriate drop downs and check boxes, click the recruit button.  Every coach can find out at the same time.

I've been a part of GD going back to the days when the "pioneers" of D-1 were posting their "draft" lists right on the forums.  When I moved into D-1 Bryant, I was given the draft lists of several prominent coaches.  They provided the lists so I knew who was off limits.  I made ZERO comment.  However, the butthurt flowed deep and wide when I was recruiting players that had already been "drafted" by other coaches.  Long story short ... I've won a few championships here and there.  I've lost a great many championship games as well.  I've watched enough recruiting cycles to see trends in unusual behavior.  I know there's some cheating going on from time to time.  You simply don't have a world where Florida, Florida State, Miami, and Alabama don't get into a recruiting battle every single season unless something is sketchy.  You think its possible to have a world where Ohio State, Notre Dame and Michigan don't battle?  Not a chance - unless cheating is going on.

Before you paint championship winners with a big cheater brushstroke, you might want to rethink your point.  I'm certainly not compromising my integrity to win at a virtual game.

Posted by johnnyf on 2/6/2015 12:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by lvnwrth on 2/6/2015 9:45:00 AM (view original):

Hmmm...wondering about all this...and what you do with this one:

When Randy Moss was dismissed from the Notre Dame football team, Lou Holtz called his friend, Bobby Bowden, and told him he should give Moss a chance to start over with a clean slate at Florida State.  Collusion?

 

How would that be collusion? Nothing being agreed to here. 

Johnnyf....your response is my point, exactly.  If another coach asks me, "Are you still interested in Johnny Fumble?" and I reply, "Nope."  what is being agreed to?  No one has ever asked me that, and I have never asked or answered such a sitemail.  But, I really don't see a problem there.