A guy like McGwire who hit in the middle of the lineup was paid to get hits and drive in runs. As long as the hitters behind him were driving him in when he walked, then his OBP mattered. I'd have to take a look at his runs totals. I'm sure like Bonds, he was given a lot of intentional walks...which is a way for the defense to pitch around him and get the next guy out...in that regards is his OBP really a good thing???

On the flip side, RIckey Henderson's OBP to me is impressive. He's a lead off hitter and his job primarily was to score runs not to drive them in. Rickey had pop, but he wasn't the kind of guy to be given an intentional walk....that would be stupid because he would hurt you on the base paths with a SB. McGwire wasn't going to steal a base and he might get easily doubled up on a double play.

Sorry...I think McGwire was a good player. But I don't think he is good enough to be a HOFer...not a great player. He needed the batting average like his relative contemporaries that should get in: Bonds, ARod, Manny Ramirez, etc.

That's dumb.

McGwire hit .263 with a 163 OPS+.

Wanna know how many guys had an OPS+ of at least 163 with a higher BA (and at least 7000 PA)?

8

Ruth
Williams
Bonds
Mantle
Cobb
Foxx
Gehrig
Hornsby

OPS+, ************!!!!!

Posted by cwillis802 on 6/10/2015 8:36:00 PM (view original):
A guy like McGwire who hit in the middle of the lineup was paid to get hits and drive in runs. As long as the hitters behind him were driving him in when he walked, then his OBP mattered. I'd have to take a look at his runs totals. I'm sure like Bonds, he was given a lot of intentional walks...which is a way for the defense to pitch around him and get the next guy out...in that regards is his OBP really a good thing???

On the flip side, RIckey Henderson's OBP to me is impressive. He's a lead off hitter and his job primarily was to score runs not to drive them in. Rickey had pop, but he wasn't the kind of guy to be given an intentional walk....that would be stupid because he would hurt you on the base paths with a SB. McGwire wasn't going to steal a base and he might get easily doubled up on a double play.

Sorry...I think McGwire was a good player. But I don't think he is good enough to be a HOFer...not a great player. He needed the batting average like his relative contemporaries that should get in: Bonds, ARod, Manny Ramirez, etc.

Yes, a guaranteed extra runner on base vs. a 60%+ chance of an out is usually a good tradeoff.  Even McGwire, who has the 7th highest SLG of all time, is only going to get an XBH about 10% of his PA.  And it's not like he batted right in front of the pitcher - he usually batted 4th or 3rd so the guy behind him was also "paid to drive in runs."

He had 150 IBB, a good number but not even close to Bonds' #.  He's right ahead of Tim Raines on the all-time IBB list, right behind Ryan Howard, and tied with Luis Gonzalez and Tony Perez (though he has less plate appearances than all of that group except Howard).

I think some of you are missing my point. McGwire used PEDs. His slugging is impressive, but was aided by PEDs. His average flat out sucked...and his average was aided by PEDs. Sorry, but I don't think he is worthy. PEDs made him a very good player, but not a great player.

Perfesser OPS+ will disagree with you.

FYI . . . here's the problem with the advanced statistics proponents . . . look at McGwire's 1991 season.  You look at his stat lines, and just about everybody will agree "yeah, he sucked that year".  Then you see that he had an OPS+ of 103.  Basically very slightly above league average.  So the SABRheads will look at McGwire's 1991 season and say "it was OK".

Posted by cwillis802 on 6/11/2015 6:02:00 AM (view original):
I think some of you are missing my point. McGwire used PEDs. His slugging is impressive, but was aided by PEDs. His average flat out sucked...and his average was aided by PEDs. Sorry, but I don't think he is worthy. PEDs made him a very good player, but not a great player.

Arguing that he doesn't belong because of his PED usage is entirely different than arguing that his average wasn't high enough.

Clearly, if you ignore PEDs, he belongs. The only real knock against him is his relatively short career.

Posted by tecwrg on 6/11/2015 6:41:00 AM (view original):
Perfesser OPS+ will disagree with you.

FYI . . . here's the problem with the advanced statistics proponents . . . look at McGwire's 1991 season.  You look at his stat lines, and just about everybody will agree "yeah, he sucked that year".  Then you see that he had an OPS+ of 103.  Basically very slightly above league average.  So the SABRheads will look at McGwire's 1991 season and say "it was OK".

Kevin Maas has a career OPS+ of 107.   Seems like he'd have had a longer career.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/maaske01.shtml

Posted by bad_luck on 6/5/2015 8:16:00 PM (view original):
And I don't apply that qualification to Hank Aaron either.

Enough of this dumbass argument. He admitted to using a greenie in 1968......greenies were legal until 1969. If steroids were legal, there would be no case against Bonds either. Put it to bed please.

Posted by The Taint on 6/11/2015 9:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/5/2015 8:16:00 PM (view original):
And I don't apply that qualification to Hank Aaron either.

Enough of this dumbass argument. He admitted to using a greenie in 1968......greenies were legal until 1969. If steroids were legal, there would be no case against Bonds either. Put it to bed please.

If you believe that he used the PED once and then stopped. I don't. But I also don't care. Aaron probably used illegal PEDs, along with thousands of other baseball players. Him, Clemens, Bonds, and McGwire all belong in the Hall of Fame.

Posted by tecwrg on 6/11/2015 6:41:00 AM (view original):
Perfesser OPS+ will disagree with you.

FYI . . . here's the problem with the advanced statistics proponents . . . look at McGwire's 1991 season.  You look at his stat lines, and just about everybody will agree "yeah, he sucked that year".  Then you see that he had an OPS+ of 103.  Basically very slightly above league average.  So the SABRheads will look at McGwire's 1991 season and say "it was OK".

He did suck that year. A 103 OPS+ for a first baseman is bad.

Posted by The Taint on 6/11/2015 9:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 6/5/2015 8:16:00 PM (view original):
And I don't apply that qualification to Hank Aaron either.

Enough of this dumbass argument. He admitted to using a greenie in 1968......greenies were legal until 1969. If steroids were legal, there would be no case against Bonds either. Put it to bed please.

It's been repeatedly reported by former teammates that Mays not only used but distributed multiple types of illegal amphetamines well into the '70s.  How are you going to offhandedly dismiss that?  Or do you think Mays should not be a HOFer?

How many times does this have to be debated?   There are people who don't care about PED(the one thing BL and I agree on) and they don't differentiate between them.   There are people who do care about PED and they do differentiate between 'roids in the 90s and amphetamines in the 60s.   And I imagine there are people who care about PED and think all PED users should be publicly whipped. 

Amphetimines are not steroids.  Not even close.

Yeah, one's a quick pick-me-up that requires no hard work to be effective and the other is a muscle-recovery agent that allows one to bust their *** in the gym in order to be a better baseball player.