Keeper World Discussion Thread Topic

MikeT23
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Rules have to be easy to understand, easy to monitor and easy to enforce.    I think I covered that and kept the concept intact in addition to removing what I saw as a huge advantage for the #1 WW priority.

The only thing I didn't eliminate was assigning LT contract players with options to AAA.   They won't be on the 40 and they won't be subject to the R5.    However, that would be easy enough to check via the trade screen.    Minors and status info.     
1/10/2015 4:07 PM
mchales_army
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>>1. What if someone signs a free agent and doesn't immediately assign him?  What tools does the commish have to force compliance? 
2. Since we all have real lives to live, what reasonable sort of time frame are we talking about from acquiring to assigning?<<


I don't get the concern here. You could say "MUST be at 20 by the start of FA" and "MUST be at 20 at the time of the roster freeze".
If I sign three FAs who cares if I'm at 23 for a couple days or whatever?
So long as both of the above time frames are met with 20 on the 40 shouldn't matter what I carried in between.
1/10/2015 4:10 PM (edited)
shobob
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Posted by jkenned on 1/10/2015 2:56:00 PM (view original):
The truth of the matter is that the commissioner has no real power of enforcement of any of our rules. We are dependent upon CS actually enforcing them for us, which they are often hesitant to do (I've had to push to remove an owner before for violating a league rule in Cool Papa Bell).

With the cut down to 20 at either time we are dependent upon the honor system, but at least cutting down to 20 at the start of Free Agency gives us a chance as a league to address the issue. If an owner does not trim down at the Roster Freeze then he has effectively managed to protect his players and we are forced to come up with a suitable punishment.

With the cut down to 20 by the start of Free Agency we have four Real world days to make sure people are in compliance. I would send an sitemail and trade chat to that owner reminding them of the rule and if not fulfilled by the final day of Free Agency they will be removed. If an owner has not performed the initial cut down to 20 by the final day of Free Agency then we need to act quickly to have them replaced with an owner who will comply that day.

After the initial cut by the start of Free Agency once players are claimed and signed it will be tougher for us to track and enforce but so long as teams are back at 20 by the final day of Free Agency then we are going to be fine. A quick scan of the rosters after the PM cycle of the final day of Free Agency will be needed to ensure everyone is in compliance and we can track that based on recent transactions in the News section.

But by giving us four days to track enforcement it will actually be easier to enforce the rule, rather than if we wait until the end of Free Agency when there will be no time to rectify the situation as all checks will be done during the Roster Freeze, which means that the offending owner can't fix the situation until after the Rule 5 and has effectively protected up to 20 other players while suffering no real penalty while being allowed to pick up players in the Rule 5.
We don't have to come up with a means of punishment. No punishment is necessary. I proposed that if you leave a player unassigned by the rule 5, that player is waived.

I'm not interested in "tracking" everyone's transactions. Having just been through a SNAFU in the draft tournament world caused by reliance upon overly complicated rules, combined with an assumption that everyone would willingly follow the "spirit" of the rules has convinced me that the best way to design the rules for a theme world is to make sure that the rules are simple, clear and easily monitored and enforced. This proposal does not meet that criteria.
1/10/2015 4:33 PM
jkenned
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I am of the opinion that the waiver wire is far too important of a team building tool to not be available before the Rule 5 even when my priority is near the back of the line. I think this would actually punish teams at the bottom of the league and prolong their rebuilds rather than accelerating it as was the intent of this concept. I also am still of the opinion that the advantage that the #1 priority has is not going as severe as you are making it out to be. Yes they can claim 6 players but also have to release 6 to stay in compliance and those 6 are not likely to be impact players. The waiver process may allow a team to go from 55 to 70-75 wins without Free Agent additions but that is the point of this rule to speed up rebuilds and distribute talent. I would rather limit the number of successful claims to 3 or 4 for the FA period than tell teams to go without.
1/10/2015 4:37 PM
MikeT23
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That's sort of the problem.    You have people on this side of the fence and people on that side of the fence.    Both have a very specific thing they aren't willing to move away from because they believe it's essential.   No compromise, no league.

Anyway, the process of WW claims, FA signings, trades, etc, etc, will be what puts teams out of compliance.    My proposal, as someone who isn't interested in being in the world, provides 3 simple rules.    Easy to understand and easy to monitor.      And I have no skin in the game so it's unbiased. 
1/10/2015 4:50 PM
shobob
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Posted by mchales_army on 1/10/2015 4:10:00 PM (view original):
>>1. What if someone signs a free agent and doesn't immediately assign him?  What tools does the commish have to force compliance? 
2. Since we all have real lives to live, what reasonable sort of time frame are we talking about from acquiring to assigning?<<


I don't get the concern here. You could say "MUST be at 20 by the start of FA" and "MUST be at 20 at the time of the roster freeze".
If I sign three FAs who cares if I'm at 23 for a couple days or whatever?
So long as both of the above time frames are met with 20 on the 40 shouldn't matter what I carried in between.
You know what? I would be fine with this.
1/10/2015 5:11 PM
jkenned
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Posted by shobob on 1/10/2015 5:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mchales_army on 1/10/2015 4:10:00 PM (view original):
>>1. What if someone signs a free agent and doesn't immediately assign him?  What tools does the commish have to force compliance? 
2. Since we all have real lives to live, what reasonable sort of time frame are we talking about from acquiring to assigning?<<


I don't get the concern here. You could say "MUST be at 20 by the start of FA" and "MUST be at 20 at the time of the roster freeze".
If I sign three FAs who cares if I'm at 23 for a couple days or whatever?
So long as both of the above time frames are met with 20 on the 40 shouldn't matter what I carried in between.
You know what? I would be fine with this.
I am in agreement here with you shobob. I think this is probably the easiest way to go about things in terms of compliance.
1/10/2015 5:19 PM
shobob
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/10/2015 3:11:00 PM (view original):
OK, I'm medicated so it's possible what I'm about to post will make no sense.   Nonetheless, here goes:

1.  No waiver claims prior to the R5 draft.
2.  No more than 20 protected at the time of the R5 draft(easy to check/enforce).
3.  The only players who can be unassigned would be FA signed less than 24 hours prior to R5 draft freeze(also easy to check/enforce).

Can anyone tell me the drawbacks of this? 
If no pre-R5 waiver claims are allowed, doesn't that mean that anyone could pass any player through waivers without fear of said player being claimed? Please tell me if I'm missing something.
1/10/2015 5:22 PM
shobob
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Posted by jkenned on 1/10/2015 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Posted by shobob on 1/10/2015 5:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mchales_army on 1/10/2015 4:10:00 PM (view original):
>>1. What if someone signs a free agent and doesn't immediately assign him?  What tools does the commish have to force compliance? 
2. Since we all have real lives to live, what reasonable sort of time frame are we talking about from acquiring to assigning?<<


I don't get the concern here. You could say "MUST be at 20 by the start of FA" and "MUST be at 20 at the time of the roster freeze".
If I sign three FAs who cares if I'm at 23 for a couple days or whatever?
So long as both of the above time frames are met with 20 on the 40 shouldn't matter what I carried in between.
You know what? I would be fine with this.
I am in agreement here with you shobob. I think this is probably the easiest way to go about things in terms of compliance.
Do we have a winner? Thanks mchales_army!
1/10/2015 5:23 PM
shobob
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Let me point out to those who thought we should limit the discussion to world members that it was an "outsider" who came up with the compromise solution that just might get us over the hump here.
1/10/2015 5:27 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by shobob on 1/10/2015 5:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/10/2015 3:11:00 PM (view original):
OK, I'm medicated so it's possible what I'm about to post will make no sense.   Nonetheless, here goes:

1.  No waiver claims prior to the R5 draft.
2.  No more than 20 protected at the time of the R5 draft(easy to check/enforce).
3.  The only players who can be unassigned would be FA signed less than 24 hours prior to R5 draft freeze(also easy to check/enforce).

Can anyone tell me the drawbacks of this? 
If no pre-R5 waiver claims are allowed, doesn't that mean that anyone could pass any player through waivers without fear of said player being claimed? Please tell me if I'm missing something.
They'll still be eligible for the R5 draft.  Which I think is the objective.   You're trying to bring everyone closer to the middle.   The #1 WW priority has a huge advantage of 2-10(all of whom are in the bottom third).    By only using the R5 draft to re-distribute talent, you're giving 2-10 access to the 2nd-10th best players.    They don't have access via the WW as #1 can snatch the first 4 on the first day claims are processed.
1/10/2015 5:28 PM
MikeT23
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To elaborate a little further, in case you say "He can only protect  20 too", you have the worst team in the league releasing his 17th-20th players to stay at 20.  As the worst team, he may not even have 17 to protect.
1/10/2015 5:32 PM
shobob
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/10/2015 5:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by shobob on 1/10/2015 5:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/10/2015 3:11:00 PM (view original):
OK, I'm medicated so it's possible what I'm about to post will make no sense.   Nonetheless, here goes:

1.  No waiver claims prior to the R5 draft.
2.  No more than 20 protected at the time of the R5 draft(easy to check/enforce).
3.  The only players who can be unassigned would be FA signed less than 24 hours prior to R5 draft freeze(also easy to check/enforce).

Can anyone tell me the drawbacks of this? 
If no pre-R5 waiver claims are allowed, doesn't that mean that anyone could pass any player through waivers without fear of said player being claimed? Please tell me if I'm missing something.
They'll still be eligible for the R5 draft.  Which I think is the objective.   You're trying to bring everyone closer to the middle.   The #1 WW priority has a huge advantage of 2-10(all of whom are in the bottom third).    By only using the R5 draft to re-distribute talent, you're giving 2-10 access to the 2nd-10th best players.    They don't have access via the WW as #1 can snatch the first 4 on the first day claims are processed.
It was my understanding that players with LT contracts are not eligible for the r5 draft. If I'm wrong about this, then I quite like this proposal.
1/10/2015 5:37 PM
MikeT23
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LT contracts won't be eligible.   That's why I mentioned "stashing" them in AAA in order to manipulate the rules.

Those players should be designated, with waivers, the day before the R5 freeze if they're not going to be on the 40.   You'll have the R5 freeze(during which time owners can place waiver claims), the draft and then the waiver claims will process the next day.   

1/10/2015 5:41 PM
shobob
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Decent enough proposal.  I'll keep it in mind if the one we have blows up in our faces lol.  The comment I have about it is it's a little bit more complex, so monitoring and enforcement becomes a bit more tricky than mchale's compromise solution.
1/10/2015 5:46 PM
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