To answer the OP's question .. I think Denver somehow gets it done.

Bradshaw was not close to Brady, come on.

Bistiza : you hate Brady. Check what he has done.

Gil : I meant QB rating at 96.4, 15 seasons and counting, 4 SBS, more TDS passes, more yds than Montana. It's close but he passed him with his last SB win. If he wins again, nobody will be able to discuss his legacy as the number 1 QB of all time.

Brady won with what he had. The roster keeps changing, they keep getting good teams up and they win it with football IQ. They built the best team EVER and lost to a crazy grab in the SB against the Giants. That team was about as perfect footballwise as you want a team to be.

As for the cheating stuff, I don't believe in it. You still have to win it on the field. And they did.

Posted by zags27 on 1/21/2016 5:54:00 PM (view original):
Brady doesn't crack the top-10 best quarterbacks of my life, (probably not in the top-20). But if you Brady bashers think for a second he's not an excellant QB, over a pretty extended period of time, you really are either blinded by your own foolishness, envy, or just low football IQ.

Just because he has throttled your favorite team over and over (could be any one of the other 30 or so), and continues to do so somehow makes him a bum?
It's like saying Elvis couldn't carry a tune. He may not have been the greatest human being of all time, or had the purest voice ever... but somehow he just kept making your girlfriend squeal and wet her pants....LOL. It appears to me alot of you seem to have had your wife mention Tommy was good looking at one time or another.

It seems really apparent that Al's wife may have mentioned how cute he was more than once.

In all fairness, Brady has done a good job with what he's been given.

He's managed to work well within a specific system tailored to his skill set, which makes him better than he really is. He's also capitalized on having had a strong offensive line (particularly early in his career, but really throughout much of it), great receivers (particularly in his mid to recent career, but again, throughout much of it) and great defenses which have carried him to regular and post season success.

My contention is not that Brady has not excelled for a long period of time - my contention is that ANY DECENT NFL QB could have done a similar job in the same situation.

Brady replaced Drew Bledsoe, who - surprise, surprise - wasn't exactly a horrible QB playing in New England. There is no reason to believe Bledsoe wouldn't have led those three teams to SB wins (one of which should be stripped as discussed before).

All of those SB games were close, and Brady got far more credit in those wins than he deserved, as usual. The defense did a great job considering the teams it was up against (it had some cheating help against the Greatest Show on Turf) and  Adam Vinateri made the clutch kicks they needed. All Brady did was manage not to screw it up.

When Brady went down for a season, Matt Cassel took over and had a similar season. The Pats had an 11-5 record which barely missed the playoffs.

It is noteworthy that this was Cassel's best season of his career by almost every statistical measure.

That's because it's the system in NE, plus great receivers at the time, NOT Tom Brady.

Brady hasn't "throttled" any team. The PATRIOTS, as a team, have beaten other teams. He's managed not to screw it up.

Your comparison to Elvis is a severe insult to Elvis.

By the way, my wife hates Tom Brady more than I do and thinks he looks "goofy". She calls him a "giant ****** bag". Seriously.

Posted by hughesjr on 1/21/2016 5:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bistiza on 1/21/2016 4:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 1/20/2016 10:39:00 PM (view original):
If he isn't the best of all time, I am thinking who is the best QB of all time. The stats, the Super Bowls... The number of seasons in the game, healthy and dominant. He played for the most dominant team in football, the 16-0 Pats that lost to that miracle catch against the Giants.

I am not a fan... But it will be tough to show me someone has had a better career.

The list of QBs better than Brady (all time) is too long to even waste time counting.

Brady's stats? Inflated as discussed before.

His offensive line, defense, and receivers CARRIED him to the SB wins, one of which shouldn't even count.

Randy Moss made that team undefeated, not Brady.

Doesn't matter .. he was there, he was the QB, he got the ring.  He is one of the best QBs of all time.  So is Terry Bradshaw.

Bradshaw was not really that good of a QB (IMHO) .. but he got it done.

I mean, I think Dan Marino and Dan Fouts where both really good passing QBs who were not surrounded with enough talent.  But, Bradshaw and Montana are always though of as better because they 'got it done'.

That's just how it is.

Trent Dilfer was the QB on a Ravens SB winning team, yet no one credits him with being a great NFL QB.

Brady is just like Dilfer but over a longer time period in a better system.

I disagree 100 percent with anyone who thinks a QB is better just because his team won a SB (or more than one). Some guys are on great teams, some are not. The SKILLS of the QB are what make him great, whether his team wins the SB or not.

Marino is one of the best of all time. He shouldn't be punished because he played on bad teams.

If Marino were somehow on the Patriots during Brady's time, he'd have at least six  SB rings, maybe more. He's THAT much better than Brady.  It's not even close.

Posted by zorzii on 1/22/2016 8:12:00 AM (view original):
Bradshaw was not close to Brady, come on.

Bistiza : you hate Brady. Check what he has done.

Gil : I meant QB rating at 96.4, 15 seasons and counting, 4 SBS, more TDS passes, more yds than Montana. It's close but he passed him with his last SB win. If he wins again, nobody will be able to discuss his legacy as the number 1 QB of all time.

Brady won with what he had. The roster keeps changing, they keep getting good teams up and they win it with football IQ. They built the best team EVER and lost to a crazy grab in the SB against the Giants. That team was about as perfect footballwise as you want a team to be.

As for the cheating stuff, I don't believe in it. You still have to win it on the field. And they did.

Yes, I hate Brady, and I explained that it is with good reason.

I have checked what he has done. He's been lucky enough to be on a great TEAM with a phenomenal COACH who has in place a SYSTEM to make him better than his skill set. He's had great offensive lines and receivers at various times, and his team's defenses have carried him on many occasions.

The guy is the single most over rated athlete in the history of any major professional sport.

Brady didn't pass anyone with his last SB win. Are you kidding me?!? The opposing coach makes a terrible call allowing the defense to bail the team out, and somehow that makes Brady great? THAT is what I'm talking about - he gets credit when he doesn't deserve it at all.

Brady keeps winning because he's on a good team with a great coach in a great system. If they'd kept Matt Cassel, it would be no different. Then maybe Cassel would be heading to the HOF as the most over rated player ever.

Yes, he cheated. Deflated balls helped him.

They wouldn't be enough if he'd spent these years on, say, the Cleveland Browns. Then he'd be out of football, just like half of their former QBs.

MOST. OVER. RATED. EVER.

Posted by zorzii on 1/22/2016 8:12:00 AM (view original):
Bradshaw was not close to Brady, come on.

Bistiza : you hate Brady. Check what he has done.

Gil : I meant QB rating at 96.4, 15 seasons and counting, 4 SBS, more TDS passes, more yds than Montana. It's close but he passed him with his last SB win. If he wins again, nobody will be able to discuss his legacy as the number 1 QB of all time.

Brady won with what he had. The roster keeps changing, they keep getting good teams up and they win it with football IQ. They built the best team EVER and lost to a crazy grab in the SB against the Giants. That team was about as perfect footballwise as you want a team to be.

As for the cheating stuff, I don't believe in it. You still have to win it on the field. And they did.

bart starr has 5 championships to brady's 4. if its really that simple, why isn't he right now the #1?

like jsa said, you are arguing most accomplished, not best. those aren't the same thing in any sport or game i am intimately familiar with. the best team doesn't always win (frankly they usually don't, if you are talking championships), the best players of a generation don't always get even one championship. there are HD coaches with 0 championships better than those with 2. chris moneymaker was not even within a galaxy of being the best player in that poker world series he won. at some point, you have to pay some homage to getting it done, but i just don't buy the simplistic nature of your argument. you are totally discounting context, and context is way too important to be ignored.

i REALLY hope peyton wins this year, because to my eye, peyton > brady is pretty clear, except for a few choke jobs in the playoffs, that i probably over value, because i always over value getting it done. because of those choke jobs im not really sure where i'd compare the two. peyton seems like hes clearly better, when i watch both, but i also struggle to discount results as disparate as 1 superbowl vs 4. also, i rooted for the patriots in the first superbowl they won with brady, i lived in the northeast, its only their cheating over time and the bs calls they get, that turned me against them. i don't hate brady like bistiza... i just want the patriots to lose, because i don't like to see cheaters win huge like they have. i think brady is easily one of the best of his time. but best ever? i just don't see it, he just isn't that good over a fairly limited sample of a few dozen games i've watched him throw in.

to me, the best player ever has to be individually great, and get it done when it counts. therefore, i figure peyton and brady are both out. thats just my take on it.

The patriots have also changed their offensive system a few times, so Brady isn't a system QB the offense they ran his first few years was much more run based to the vertical passing game with Moss, to the more west coast passing game that they run now.

Bis you just really hate Brady and are trying to say whatever you want because you hate him.  he is more than just a "system" QB.  

You say he has just benefitted from his elite teams yeh that 07/08 teams were darn insane and thats why Cassell did so well, but besides 3 seasons of Moss, he's never had an elite reciever, now granted he has had Gronk when healthy who is on the way to being the best TE of all time.

But Manning if anyone has had the best supoorting cast to throw to with Harrison, Wayne, then Thomas, Decker, Sanders, and then Clark and Thomas as his TE's.  Brady only has had an "elite" RB his first few seasons, Manning had James with the Colts and I guess right now Anderson is very very good.  Both had Welker.

Brady has benefitted from a stronger defense for most of his career however now the Bronco's are the better defense team.

Brady has had in my mind the greatest coach ever with Bill, Dungy was great for the Colts.

And now this is a bit more "reputation" and not entirely all due to Manning, Brady.  But Manning has a bad reputation in the playoffs and in bad weather, whereas Brady is known for being pretty clutch and for playoff success, I don't remember a time where Brady has **** the bed to the extent Manning has done on multiple occassions.

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/22/2016 10:18:00 AM (view original):

Posted by zorzii on 1/22/2016 8:12:00 AM (view original):
Bradshaw was not close to Brady, come on.

Bistiza : you hate Brady. Check what he has done.

Gil : I meant QB rating at 96.4, 15 seasons and counting, 4 SBS, more TDS passes, more yds than Montana. It's close but he passed him with his last SB win. If he wins again, nobody will be able to discuss his legacy as the number 1 QB of all time.

Brady won with what he had. The roster keeps changing, they keep getting good teams up and they win it with football IQ. They built the best team EVER and lost to a crazy grab in the SB against the Giants. That team was about as perfect footballwise as you want a team to be.

As for the cheating stuff, I don't believe in it. You still have to win it on the field. And they did.

bart starr has 5 championships to brady's 4. if its really that simple, why isn't he right now the #1?

like jsa said, you are arguing most accomplished, not best. those aren't the same thing in any sport or game i am intimately familiar with. the best team doesn't always win (frankly they usually don't, if you are talking championships), the best players of a generation don't always get even one championship. there are HD coaches with 0 championships better than those with 2. chris moneymaker was not even within a galaxy of being the best player in that poker world series he won. at some point, you have to pay some homage to getting it done, but i just don't buy the simplistic nature of your argument. you are totally discounting context, and context is way too important to be ignored.

i REALLY hope peyton wins this year, because to my eye, peyton > brady is pretty clear, except for a few choke jobs in the playoffs, that i probably over value, because i always over value getting it done. because of those choke jobs im not really sure where i'd compare the two. peyton seems like hes clearly better, when i watch both, but i also struggle to discount results as disparate as 1 superbowl vs 4. also, i rooted for the patriots in the first superbowl they won with brady, i lived in the northeast, its only their cheating over time and the bs calls they get, that turned me against them. i don't hate brady like bistiza... i just want the patriots to lose, because i don't like to see cheaters win huge like they have. i think brady is easily one of the best of his time. but best ever? i just don't see it, he just isn't that good over a fairly limited sample of a few dozen games i've watched him throw in.

to me, the best player ever has to be individually great, and get it done when it counts. therefore, i figure peyton and brady are both out. thats just my take on it.

There really is no debate about Peyton and Brady. The ONLY comparison is a similar era in terms of seasons they played.

Peyton is so far above and beyond Brady that the light from Peyton would take ten million years to reach Brady.

Peyton is arguably the best QB ever. Brady is like Trent Dilfer but with more years being carried by a good team.

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/22/2016 10:32:00 AM (view original):
The patriots have also changed their offensive system a few times, so Brady isn't a system QB the offense they ran his first few years was much more run based to the vertical passing game with Moss, to the more west coast passing game that they run now.

Bis you just really hate Brady and are trying to say whatever you want because you hate him.  he is more than just a "system" QB.  

You say he has just benefitted from his elite teams yeh that 07/08 teams were darn insane and thats why Cassell did so well, but besides 3 seasons of Moss, he's never had an elite reciever, now granted he has had Gronk when healthy who is on the way to being the best TE of all time.

But Manning if anyone has had the best supoorting cast to throw to with Harrison, Wayne, then Thomas, Decker, Sanders, and then Clark and Thomas as his TE's.  Brady only has had an "elite" RB his first few seasons, Manning had James with the Colts and I guess right now Anderson is very very good.  Both had Welker.

Brady has benefitted from a stronger defense for most of his career however now the Bronco's are the better defense team.

Brady has had in my mind the greatest coach ever with Bill, Dungy was great for the Colts.

And now this is a bit more "reputation" and not entirely all due to Manning, Brady.  But Manning has a bad reputation in the playoffs and in bad weather, whereas Brady is known for being pretty clutch and for playoff success, I don't remember a time where Brady has **** the bed to the extent Manning has done on multiple occassions.

I hate Brady BECAUSE he is over rated (and a cheater) - I don't paint him as over rated because of the hate.

The Patriots systems have always relied on dink and dunk passes that inflate Brady's stats. He's not a good down field passer unless he's chucking it to Randy Moss or Rob Gronkowski or some amazing receiver - and that's the receiver, not him.

Moss made him look great (he also did that for Daunte Culpepper - so why is no one saying Culpepper is amazing like Brady? Because Brady is over rated.).

Wes Welker made him look great too. Now Gronkowski makes him look great. So do Edelman and Amendola, really.

Manning MADE his receivers look great, whereas Brady's receivers made HIM look great.

Of course the coaching has made Brady look far better than his skill set says he is. He's Trent Dilfer with a few more rings because others carried him there, but since he was the QB, he gets the credit from the talking heads.

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/22/2016 10:32:00 AM (view original):
The patriots have also changed their offensive system a few times, so Brady isn't a system QB the offense they ran his first few years was much more run based to the vertical passing game with Moss, to the more west coast passing game that they run now.

Bis you just really hate Brady and are trying to say whatever you want because you hate him.  he is more than just a "system" QB.  

You say he has just benefitted from his elite teams yeh that 07/08 teams were darn insane and thats why Cassell did so well, but besides 3 seasons of Moss, he's never had an elite reciever, now granted he has had Gronk when healthy who is on the way to being the best TE of all time.

But Manning if anyone has had the best supoorting cast to throw to with Harrison, Wayne, then Thomas, Decker, Sanders, and then Clark and Thomas as his TE's.  Brady only has had an "elite" RB his first few seasons, Manning had James with the Colts and I guess right now Anderson is very very good.  Both had Welker.

Brady has benefitted from a stronger defense for most of his career however now the Bronco's are the better defense team.

Brady has had in my mind the greatest coach ever with Bill, Dungy was great for the Colts.

And now this is a bit more "reputation" and not entirely all due to Manning, Brady.  But Manning has a bad reputation in the playoffs and in bad weather, whereas Brady is known for being pretty clutch and for playoff success, I don't remember a time where Brady has **** the bed to the extent Manning has done on multiple occassions.

i dont really disagree on receivers, i think both have had some good receiving cores, and a couple ****** ones.

brady has had a fantastic o-line for much of his career, and on average significantly better defense than peyton had. if your o-line, defense, and coaching/management, are way better than another guy, it makes your life way easier. thats got to count for a lot. how much? no clue.

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/22/2016 4:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/22/2016 10:32:00 AM (view original):
The patriots have also changed their offensive system a few times, so Brady isn't a system QB the offense they ran his first few years was much more run based to the vertical passing game with Moss, to the more west coast passing game that they run now.

Bis you just really hate Brady and are trying to say whatever you want because you hate him.  he is more than just a "system" QB.  

You say he has just benefitted from his elite teams yeh that 07/08 teams were darn insane and thats why Cassell did so well, but besides 3 seasons of Moss, he's never had an elite reciever, now granted he has had Gronk when healthy who is on the way to being the best TE of all time.

But Manning if anyone has had the best supoorting cast to throw to with Harrison, Wayne, then Thomas, Decker, Sanders, and then Clark and Thomas as his TE's.  Brady only has had an "elite" RB his first few seasons, Manning had James with the Colts and I guess right now Anderson is very very good.  Both had Welker.

Brady has benefitted from a stronger defense for most of his career however now the Bronco's are the better defense team.

Brady has had in my mind the greatest coach ever with Bill, Dungy was great for the Colts.

And now this is a bit more "reputation" and not entirely all due to Manning, Brady.  But Manning has a bad reputation in the playoffs and in bad weather, whereas Brady is known for being pretty clutch and for playoff success, I don't remember a time where Brady has **** the bed to the extent Manning has done on multiple occassions.

i dont really disagree on receivers, i think both have had some good receiving cores, and a couple ****** ones.

brady has had a fantastic o-line for much of his career, and on average significantly better defense than peyton had. if your o-line, defense, and coaching/management, are way better than another guy, it makes your life way easier. thats got to count for a lot. how much? no clue.

I'd say Manning has had more offensive weapons his entire career, at best Brady has had 1 elite receiver, Manning has always had multiple great/elite guys on his team.

I think if Brady and Manning had switched careers, Brady would be the much better statistical player, I don't think he would have the same post season sucess.  Manning would've blown it every time for the Pats.

"Manning MADE his receivers look great, whereas Brady's receivers made HIM look great."

Of the many ridiculous comments in this thread, this one is by far the most laughable.

It could not be more obvious that the reverse is true.  

Bistiza

Trent Dilfer = Brady?

Be serious.

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/22/2016 4:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/22/2016 10:32:00 AM (view original):
The patriots have also changed their offensive system a few times, so Brady isn't a system QB the offense they ran his first few years was much more run based to the vertical passing game with Moss, to the more west coast passing game that they run now.

Bis you just really hate Brady and are trying to say whatever you want because you hate him.  he is more than just a "system" QB.  

You say he has just benefitted from his elite teams yeh that 07/08 teams were darn insane and thats why Cassell did so well, but besides 3 seasons of Moss, he's never had an elite reciever, now granted he has had Gronk when healthy who is on the way to being the best TE of all time.

But Manning if anyone has had the best supoorting cast to throw to with Harrison, Wayne, then Thomas, Decker, Sanders, and then Clark and Thomas as his TE's.  Brady only has had an "elite" RB his first few seasons, Manning had James with the Colts and I guess right now Anderson is very very good.  Both had Welker.

Brady has benefitted from a stronger defense for most of his career however now the Bronco's are the better defense team.

Brady has had in my mind the greatest coach ever with Bill, Dungy was great for the Colts.

And now this is a bit more "reputation" and not entirely all due to Manning, Brady.  But Manning has a bad reputation in the playoffs and in bad weather, whereas Brady is known for being pretty clutch and for playoff success, I don't remember a time where Brady has **** the bed to the extent Manning has done on multiple occassions.

i dont really disagree on receivers, i think both have had some good receiving cores, and a couple ****** ones.

brady has had a fantastic o-line for much of his career, and on average significantly better defense than peyton had. if your o-line, defense, and coaching/management, are way better than another guy, it makes your life way easier. thats got to count for a lot. how much? no clue.

THIS.

The coaching in NE has been fantastic, the O-line doesn't let the QB get touched much of the time, the defense has been great most of the time too.

If Brady and Manning were switched, with Brady at Ind/Den and Manning in NE, the Patriots would likely have won 8 to 10 Super Bowls in the same span, while Brady would have lower stats than he does now and would have been lucky to get to an SB let alone win one.

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/22/2016 5:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 1/22/2016 4:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the0nlyis on 1/22/2016 10:32:00 AM (view original):
The patriots have also changed their offensive system a few times, so Brady isn't a system QB the offense they ran his first few years was much more run based to the vertical passing game with Moss, to the more west coast passing game that they run now.

Bis you just really hate Brady and are trying to say whatever you want because you hate him.  he is more than just a "system" QB.  

You say he has just benefitted from his elite teams yeh that 07/08 teams were darn insane and thats why Cassell did so well, but besides 3 seasons of Moss, he's never had an elite reciever, now granted he has had Gronk when healthy who is on the way to being the best TE of all time.

But Manning if anyone has had the best supoorting cast to throw to with Harrison, Wayne, then Thomas, Decker, Sanders, and then Clark and Thomas as his TE's.  Brady only has had an "elite" RB his first few seasons, Manning had James with the Colts and I guess right now Anderson is very very good.  Both had Welker.

Brady has benefitted from a stronger defense for most of his career however now the Bronco's are the better defense team.

Brady has had in my mind the greatest coach ever with Bill, Dungy was great for the Colts.

And now this is a bit more "reputation" and not entirely all due to Manning, Brady.  But Manning has a bad reputation in the playoffs and in bad weather, whereas Brady is known for being pretty clutch and for playoff success, I don't remember a time where Brady has **** the bed to the extent Manning has done on multiple occassions.

i dont really disagree on receivers, i think both have had some good receiving cores, and a couple ****** ones.

brady has had a fantastic o-line for much of his career, and on average significantly better defense than peyton had. if your o-line, defense, and coaching/management, are way better than another guy, it makes your life way easier. thats got to count for a lot. how much? no clue.

I'd say Manning has had more offensive weapons his entire career, at best Brady has had 1 elite receiver, Manning has always had multiple great/elite guys on his team.

I think if Brady and Manning had switched careers, Brady would be the much better statistical player, I don't think he would have the same post season sucess.  Manning would've blown it every time for the Pats.

Completely disagree.

If Brady didn't have the great coaching, system, O-line, defense, and general overall talent he's had in NE, his statistics get far worse, not better.

Meanwhile, Manning with that kind of support wouldn't have blown anything. The Pats win 8-10 SBs in the same span Brady has only gotten four.