ESPN HOF ballot revealed. Topic

tecwrg
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Fine.

If you're one of the best players among your peers for an extended period of time, then that's a reasonable way to look at it.

Two CYAs, four additional top 3 finishes, a number of 20 win seasons, and 300 career wins seems like reasonable HOF criteria for a starting pitcher.
1/13/2014 9:22 PM
ncmusician_7
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  IP ERA+ WHIP HR/9  
Kevin Brown 257.0 164 1.066 0.3  
Greg Maddux 251.0 187 0.980 0.5  
Tom Glavine 229.1 168 1.203 0.5  
           
Did Glavine really deserve the NL CYA in 1998?
1/13/2014 10:52 PM
ncmusician_7
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CYA voting IP WAR ERA+
1st 220.1 5.6 128
2nd 229.1 5.6 126
3rd 238.2 4.2 135
4th 209.2 3.4 120
5th 228.2 7.1 143
6th 235.0 4.5 129
       
Does this look reasonable?
1/13/2014 11:09 PM
Got_Worms
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Posted by ncmusician_7 on 1/13/2014 10:52:00 PM (view original):
  IP ERA+ WHIP HR/9  
Kevin Brown 257.0 164 1.066 0.3  
Greg Maddux 251.0 187 0.980 0.5  
Tom Glavine 229.1 168 1.203 0.5  
           
Did Glavine really deserve the NL CYA in 1998?
No Trevor Hoffman did.
1/14/2014 2:17 AM
mfahie
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Trevor Hoffman? Randy Johnson deserved it more than he did!
1/14/2014 7:59 AM
MikeT23
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So, now that tec has said "CY Awards" are part of the big picture, you're going to argue that he didn't deserve it?

What's next?   Picking out a game where he gave up 6 ER in 7 innings but got the win and saying "He didn't deserve a win"?    Can tec counter with a game where he pitched 9 innings, gave up one unearned run and got a loss?
1/14/2014 8:21 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/14/2014 8:21:00 AM (view original):
So, now that tec has said "CY Awards" are part of the big picture, you're going to argue that he didn't deserve it?

What's next?   Picking out a game where he gave up 6 ER in 7 innings but got the win and saying "He didn't deserve a win"?    Can tec counter with a game where he pitched 9 innings, gave up one unearned run and got a loss?
You're right we should stop using a stat that can assign a positive to a really bad outing and a negative to a really good outing and replace it with stats that tell us what actually happened, stats like ERA and WHIP.
1/14/2014 9:20 AM
burnsy483
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Cy Youngs and wins.  OK.  I know we hate hypotheticals, but I'll ask tec this - if it wasn't for the 300 wins, do you think he's in?  If he finished with 285, is he a HOFer?
1/14/2014 9:34 AM
byeags25
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Personally, I think if he was at 285 instead of 300, he's right on the fence and probably gets in after a few years on the ballot.  However, the fact remains that no matter what any of us think of the win statistic, the precedant was set that 300+ makes you an automatic Hall of Famer
1/14/2014 9:48 AM
MikeT23
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I don't care if he had 350 wins, he shouldn't be in.   He, Mussina and Schilling should all be ******** about not making it in 2030. 
1/14/2014 10:11 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 1/14/2014 9:20:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/14/2014 8:21:00 AM (view original):
So, now that tec has said "CY Awards" are part of the big picture, you're going to argue that he didn't deserve it?

What's next?   Picking out a game where he gave up 6 ER in 7 innings but got the win and saying "He didn't deserve a win"?    Can tec counter with a game where he pitched 9 innings, gave up one unearned run and got a loss?
You're right we should stop using a stat that can assign a positive to a really bad outing and a negative to a really good outing and replace it with stats that tell us what actually happened, stats like ERA and WHIP.

Are you interested in listing the 300 game winners who sucked for their career?

Or, if you prefer, the 20 game winners who had a bad year?      And not some 1902 guy with 73 starts. 

1/14/2014 10:12 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 1/14/2014 10:12:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 1/14/2014 9:20:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/14/2014 8:21:00 AM (view original):
So, now that tec has said "CY Awards" are part of the big picture, you're going to argue that he didn't deserve it?

What's next?   Picking out a game where he gave up 6 ER in 7 innings but got the win and saying "He didn't deserve a win"?    Can tec counter with a game where he pitched 9 innings, gave up one unearned run and got a loss?
You're right we should stop using a stat that can assign a positive to a really bad outing and a negative to a really good outing and replace it with stats that tell us what actually happened, stats like ERA and WHIP.

Are you interested in listing the 300 game winners who sucked for their career?

Or, if you prefer, the 20 game winners who had a bad year?      And not some 1902 guy with 73 starts. 

What? There's a correlation between pitching long enough to get 300 wins and being good. Shocked as **** right here!

I bet the same correlation exists for the guys with the most innings, losses, strikeouts...maybe even walks.

Do you know what that correlation doesn't mean? That wins are a good stat.
1/14/2014 10:28 AM
tecwrg
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Posted by burnsy483 on 1/14/2014 9:34:00 AM (view original):
Cy Youngs and wins.  OK.  I know we hate hypotheticals, but I'll ask tec this - if it wasn't for the 300 wins, do you think he's in?  If he finished with 285, is he a HOFer?
Cut the last two years off his career, and he's at 290 wins.  So let's go with that.

Sure.  He still has five 20-win seasons, six top-3 CYA finishes (as well as two wins).  Plus, his "rate stats" improve slightly because those final two seasons dragged those numbers down a bit.

I'd say he's in at 290.  Probably not on the first ballot, but certainly within 2 or 3 elections.
1/14/2014 10:49 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 1/14/2014 10:28:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/14/2014 10:12:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 1/14/2014 9:20:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 1/14/2014 8:21:00 AM (view original):
So, now that tec has said "CY Awards" are part of the big picture, you're going to argue that he didn't deserve it?

What's next?   Picking out a game where he gave up 6 ER in 7 innings but got the win and saying "He didn't deserve a win"?    Can tec counter with a game where he pitched 9 innings, gave up one unearned run and got a loss?
You're right we should stop using a stat that can assign a positive to a really bad outing and a negative to a really good outing and replace it with stats that tell us what actually happened, stats like ERA and WHIP.

Are you interested in listing the 300 game winners who sucked for their career?

Or, if you prefer, the 20 game winners who had a bad year?      And not some 1902 guy with 73 starts. 

What? There's a correlation between pitching long enough to get 300 wins and being good. Shocked as **** right here!

I bet the same correlation exists for the guys with the most innings, losses, strikeouts...maybe even walks.

Do you know what that correlation doesn't mean? That wins are a good stat.
So, I assume, you are not interested in listing those pitchers.


Thanks for your participation.
1/14/2014 10:59 AM
bad_luck
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Not great at reading between the lines, are you?
1/14/2014 11:12 AM
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ESPN HOF ballot revealed. Topic
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