4/18/2006 12:37 PM
The ball park thing is a major, major problem. While I agree that park effects are large, the normalization and salary algorithm does not adjust for the park effects of the player in real life. The WIS guys told me in an email--unless I misunderstood--that Tod Helton, for example, will normalize as a slightly worse hitter than his RL numbers, because he plays in the modern lively ball era. But he is not adjusted any differently than, say, Bobby Crosby in the same season, even though he played in Coors, versus Crosby in Network.
This is a gaping, cavernous hole in the sim.
4/18/2006 12:37 PM
4/18/2006 12:43 PM
JP,
Great post...entertaining and creative. With all the ******** lately regarding "off-topic posts", let me go on the record as saying we could use more of this type...made me laugh.
4/18/2006 12:44 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By johnpaul0 on 4/18/2006

The ball park thing is a major, major problem. While I agree that park effects are large, the normalization and salary algorithm does not adjust for the park effects of the player in real life. The WIS guys told me in an email--unless I misunderstood--that Tod Helton, for example, will normalize as a slightly worse hitter than his RL numbers, because he plays in the modern lively ball era. But he is not adjusted any differently than, say, Bobby Crosby in the same season, even though he played in Coors, versus Crosby in Network.
This is a gaping, cavernous hole in the sim.
Do you know how hard it was to get the average user to understand normalization by year? Do you know what it is like trying to get them to understand that Yaz's .301 in 1968 is way different than a .300 hitter in 1930?

Now, trying to get them to also understand that a .300 hitter in Coors in 1999 is not the same as a .300 hitter in Safeco in 1999, but more like a .300 hitter in Braves in 1930....

No. We've alienated enough casual fans by being too difficult to grasp. Normalizing by park effect is going beyond what is needed to enjoy the sim.

It depends on your goal: Is it to correctly simulate every aspect of baseball or is it to provide a fair, playable game based upon baseball? If the first, you're probably doomed to failure, as any real world task is extremely difficult to simulate in a computer world, but if it's the second, then they're remarkably close.
4/18/2006 1:03 PM
I enjoy reading Bill James so I appreciate the ballpark argument, but the game is plenty enough complicated as it is. I wouldn't be surprised to find, if you could get them all to vote, that 50% of active users would just as soon have no normalization at all, and just go with the players' real life stats.
I'd rather see the site enhance the value of what it provides now (fielding stats!! home and away splits!! y-righty splits!!) and work on ironing out the wrinkles in the current version before moving on to an apocalypticupdate.
4/18/2006 1:03 PM
I disagree, Len. If what you say is true, then the ballpark effects shouldn't matter so much in the sim.
Calculation of the salary and normalization are not conceptually difficult to grasp. Casual fans aren't too stupid to understand it, although they might be unaccustomed to thinking about it. But once you understand normalization as a concept, it isn't difficult to accept that numbers in Coors don't equal numbers in the Astrodome.
Normalizing for park effects in real life would open up another "vein" in the arena of mining for hidden value, and I think it's necessary. How it affects pitchers is even more acute.
4/18/2006 1:18 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By johnpaul0 on 4/18/2006
INormalizing for park effects in real life would open up another "vein" in the arena of mining for hidden value, and I think it's necessary. How it affects pitchers is even more acute.
Yep. A new place to find cookies, until they close it.

Why bother? Because it works better with some experts vision of baseball? I don't care much for that.
4/18/2006 2:00 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By JohnGPF on 4/18/2006
...i think the standard game should start in 1921 with prior seasons being available for theme leagues..
I also think they should cut off the modern eras of cocaine, greenies, and steroids!

How can you compare the artificially stimulated and buffed up players of the 70s-now with the baseball players of the glory days?

That's the only kind of baseball I care about - pure! These modern players are a disgrace to mom, apple pie, and the spirit of the game.
4/18/2006 2:52 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By bosoxbill on 4/18/2006
I also think they should cut off the modern eras of cocaine, greenies, and steroids!

How can you compare the artificially stimulated and buffed up players of the 70s-now with the baseball players of the glory days?

That's the only kind of baseball I care about - pure! These modern players are a disgrace to mom, apple pie, and the spirit of the game.

...i try not to make those kinds of subjective judgements...with the exception of 1981, 1994 and, perhaps, 1995, the years from 1921-2005 provide a nice data set for a baseball simulation...
4/18/2006 9:15 PM



4/18/2006 9:18 PM



4/18/2006 9:24 PM
WHERE DID YOU GET THAT PICTURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4/18/2006 9:32 PM
All Forums > Major League Baseball General Discussion

Topic: my ( ceez ) 1970 N.Y Mets


Quote: Originally Posted By ceez on 6/02/2005

they're back!!! the '69 team made the wildcard but lost in the 1st rd to the eventual champ St. Louis Cardinals

Art Shamsky was the goat

the 1970 Mets once again take the wildcard with a 97-65 record

Atlanta wins the division for the 2nd yr in a row with 99 wins , they face the western division champ S.F Giants ( 91 wins ) in the 1st rd

we face the mighty and powerful Chicago Cubs 114 wins ...

ceez beat my Cubs with his Mets on the way to a Progressive League Championship, he has many photos of the Mets near the end of the thread, including the one above. I believe that may have been what antoncreston was trying to post earlier.

I found some great photos with comedian Bill Murray, George Brett, Ozzie Smith and many other HOFers on the weekend Ryne Sandberg and Wade Boggs were inducted.

They are on macromedia flash and I have no idea how to save or copy and paste them.

HOF Weekend Photos
Take a look back at Hall of Fame Weekend 2005.
View our Photo Galleries:
Friday | Saturday | Sunday

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hof_weekend/index.htm

Bill Murray emceed festivities at the Wrigley Field All Star Game Practice Day Home Run Hitting contest @ 1991. Seeing all the all stars at Wrigley was a special day of baseball.

4/18/2006 11:18 PM




Pete Rose and Bud Harrelson arguing over recent "ominous,
idiotic" trends in Whatifsports Sim League baseball?

4/18/2006 11:52 PM


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