All Forums > WhatIfSports > WhatIfSports > Boasters, Whiners, Cons, Libs (CLOSED)
2/13/2008 1:31 PM
I was recently re-elected. Your comparison to Al Capone is ludicrous at best and ridiculous in it's assertion, and your response is typical of someone who fails to believe the truth and only desires the last hateful word. So, I'll give it to you and this will be my last post.
2/13/2008 1:39 PM
Just in case Lazerhawks looks in again, here's just one of many references -- and it's taken from The Nation, hardly a fly-by-night blog:

"First, the purges. In the months leading up to the November 2000 presidential election, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, in coordination with Governor Jeb Bush, ordered local election supervisors to purge 57,700 voters from the registries, supposedly ex-cons not allowed to vote in Florida. At least 90.2 percent of those on this "scrub" list, targeted to lose their civil rights, are innocent. Notably, more than half--about 54 percent--are black or Hispanic. You can argue all night about the number ultimately purged, but there's no argument that this electoral racial pogrom ordered by Jeb Bush's operatives gave the White House to his older brother."
2/13/2008 1:41 PM
Lazerhawks, if you're still there: You've made your arguments with no documentation or citations.

As an educated historian, you know you're not going to win this debate without citing something more than your opinion.

P.S. -- You may be an independent, but you sound like a Republican.
2/13/2008 3:18 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By doubletruck on 2/13/2008Lazerhawks, if you're still there: You've made your arguments with no documentation or citations.

As an educated historian, you know you're not going to win this debate without citing something more than your opinion.

P.S. -- You may be an independent, but you sound like a Republican
DT with all due respect you have posted wild comparisons to drive your points home. I can cite the Bible if you like to show how wrong abortion, gay marriage, premarital sex is if you like.
2/13/2008 3:31 PM
Capone may have been a wild analogy, although the point I was making with it was sound: just because other people are getting away with something doesn't absolve someone of his guilt. Note that LH made no attempt to answer the question of whether he thought Delay was not guilty of doing anything wrong.

And I trust you noted that I cited information from a credible source regarding the Florida election, whereas LH merely stated his opinions.

As for the Bible, we'll have to agree to disagree. It appears that you may believe it to be the inerrant word of God. I know it to be a human document that embodies significant threads of history but one which has been translated and mistranslated over the centuries, and even changed here and there to satisfy political exigencies. I know people who argue, as you apparently do, that the Bible classifies homosexuality as sin; and I know people who argue that the Bible accepts homosexuality; and I know people who argue that injunctions against homosexuality were written into the Bible in Victorian times with no documentary basis for doing so in the ancients scrolls or writings. I don't know that any of those three arguments is the best, because I can't read Hebrew, Greek or Sanscrit, and I haven't looked into all of their evidence or rationalizations. What I do know, is that I revere biblical wisdom in general as a good guideline for how to live one's life; I have no intellectual basis or emotional experience that leads me to accept the Bible as the absolute, inerrant word of God.
2/13/2008 3:35 PM
Ashel: One more thing.

I have encountered a number of people who insist that gays and lesbians choose to be homosexuals.

I ask them a simple question: When did you choose to be heterosexual?

You can believe that homosexuality is wrong, but you can't prove that people are not born that way. There is a lot of evidence that they are; and, if they are, would this not be God's doing?
2/13/2008 3:38 PM
Quote: Originally posted by doubletruck on 2/13/2008 Ashel: One more thing.

I have encountered a number of people who insist that gays and lesbians choose to be homosexuals.

I ask them a simple question: When did you choose to be heterosexual?

You can believe that homosexuality is wrong, but you can't prove that people are not born that way. There is a lot of evidence that they are; and, if they are, would this not be God's doing?

Well said.
2/13/2008 3:54 PM
With Florida in the 2000 Presidential Election it appears the closer one examines the circumstances, one finds there is no one who is truly the good guy.
It would be nice if we had an opportunity to root for people doing the right thing.
I thought the " Let every vote count " argument was insincere due to the controversy regarding Absentee ballots.
And I have heard Hillary Clinton promote the idea of letting convicted felons vote.
And wanting people to actually be who they say they are, and be eligible voters seems reasonable, yet any effort for verifying one's identity at the polling place has been bitterly opposed.
Now today I hear from doubletruck, a reasonable person, that the Republican hierarchy in Florida was working the system and people's voting rights were put into question. Not being sarcastic, drawing up district lines is a traditional political strategy, being mapped out to favor those whose turn it is to draw up the district maps.
Where are the Noble statesmen who will do what is best and morally right.
Lazerhawks, I appreciate your posts. Do you have any media sources you would recommend?
Also would you have any public officials you can commend. Is Indianapolis Gregory A. Ballard someone you could recommend? An ex - Marine who pulled off a large upset by winning his election against an incumbent two term mayor.

Does anyone reading this thread have speakers they respect and enjoy listening to despite being 180 degrees apart on some very important issues.
Actor Mike Farrell, ( Dr. B.J. Hunnicutt on M*A*S*H* ) and Presidential Candidate Ralph Nader are two people I respect as thoughtful, sincere, well-meaning individuals who I am far apart on many issues.


2/13/2008 3:59 PM
Good input, o..doggie, because these kind of issues need to be debated sincerely and respectfully.
2/13/2008 4:28 PM
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2/13/2008 4:39 PM
No I didn't write it.
2/13/2008 4:40 PM
I really like to see your source for the NEA quotes.....
2/13/2008 4:47 PM
I would never assert that all who practice homosexuality are born that way. But I believe that most of them are born and not made.

There have always been homosexuals among us, from ancient times to the present. Some from good families with strong fathers, and some not.

I have a number of homosexual friends who tried mightily to live straight. They married. They fathered children. Yet they lived in anguish until they finally stopped fighting, and accepted their nature.

I know a young man whose parents are abiding, fervent Christians. He has chosen to live in a city far from his family, because they are not bothered by what they don't have to face. He loves them and they love him. I don't know if they're clueless or if they practice don't ask, don't tell.

I respect your earnestness. But homosexuals comprise perhaps 5% of the population. Some studies show that this is pretty much a constant. Like all other manifestations of life, sexuality occurs on a spectrum.

The gays and lesbians are not going to take over the world, nor are they seeking to do so. They just want a fair shake in a country founded on the principle that all people are created equal.

The struggle against their humanity does not serve the God I know.
2/13/2008 5:18 PM

Your post actually had some validity up until this:

Quote: Originally posted by ashel1 on 2/13/2008
It is certain that Bible writers are correct

What makes it so "certain"??? Because YOU believe it to be true? Where is your factual evidence to back this claim up?

That statement renders everything else in your post very difficult to take seriously. And a lot of it was hard to take seriously in the first place.

I don't believe in a God, although I respect those who have faith in such a being. But to claim that "it is certain" that a book written and rewritten hundreds, thousands of years ago is infallible to this day... well, I guess it takes a TON of "faith" to say that with a straight face.

I also find it laughable that you quote a doctor who implies that homosexuality is a product of divorced families. I'd argue that the total number of homosexuals per 100,000 people (random number) in this country isn't much different now than it was 50, 100 or 200 years ago. There just was much less (if any) tolerance of it, so it had to be hidden. Of course, if you listen to people like ashen and his ilk, there's still not much tolerance.

"Many schools are attempting to brainwash our children"?

"Keep the slime out of our classrooms"?

I wish I could state my views as intelligently and eloquently as DT does. Sorry, but that's some big ol' bullshit up there.
2/13/2008 5:25 PM
Now I've been mulling over this. (Obviously, I have nothing better to do.)

Let's say the number of gays in the population was only 3%, for the sake of discussion. That would be one person in every 33.3.

In other words, "they" are all over the place. You do business with "them" everyday.

Why don't you know who "they" are?

Well, they're hiding. They're just trying to live everyday lives. I know or have known upwards of 50 gay men (and a few lesbians) that I know of. They are intelligent, modest, self-contained people who live ordinary lives in every way except the one behavior that so bothers so many people.

The behavior that seems so unnatural to the anti-gays (and feels unnatural even to people like me), seems natural to them.

"They" are just human beings.
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All Forums > WhatIfSports > WhatIfSports > Boasters, Whiners, Cons, Libs (CLOSED)

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