one other thing, trolls: there are plenty of people talking about this in the only forum monkee can now post in: the funk52 draft league. Several people besides me have submitted tickets.

(and again - I don't even like monkee, so don't include me as one of his blowhard cronies)

here's the 10 hours since it happened/was explained:

02/01 19:21 chris_snid Wow, can't believe this crap. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary the monkee did. GL monkee
02/01 16:05 ashamael I sent in a ticket. WIS has one day before I join a bunch of OLs.
02/01 13:13 scudmissle but i dont get it... nothing was so beligerent in the forums to warrant such a response... what did chester do? and monkee? monkman is a watchdog, lots of bark, but certainly no bite. what a chilling effect this has created. losing monkee and chester is huge. i'm a bit depressed. sorry, to u 2 gentlemen.
02/01 13:07 longtallbrad Pretty weird, monkee. I hope this gets sorted out reasonably and you have cause to stick around, but I can understand if you pack up and go. There may be implications for more of us, for all I know...chester_o said in another league thread that his account has been suspended.
02/01 12:45 ncih Monkee, you will be missed.
02/01 11:08 macphisto WTF?!? Sorry to hear that. We've had our differences to be sure, but for a quality old school WIS guy to be shut down like that is crappy. Good luck this season.
02/01 10:22 monkee 'they' decided they didnt like me posting in the forums anymore and have permanently revoked my posting rights - you can see more explanation in the forums - obviously this is my last team

Quote: Originally posted by garyman on 2/01/2010basically we can't express our frustration over the sim for fear of being banned now? If we ask for something multiple times over months on end, and nothing gets done we just have to smile and like it, after they said they will make some changes?

I don't think that's true at all. It seems pretty clear that monkee's ban stems mainly from the duration, frequency and tone of his messages about or directed at WIS staff (and seble specifically). I've never seen any pushback from staff on suggestions or even critiques, as long as they're presented in reasonably civil terms (and the staff even seem willing to put up with a bunch of stuff I wouldn't tolerate long if I were in their shoes). Obviously monkee crossed some kind of behavioral line with them...I don't pretend to understand the full history of it.

I'm with tracyr in feeling no surprise that WIS staff are exercising their right to push back on what they feel is unacceptable behavior from posters. I'm also with ash and others in wanting to see some kind of protocols that define what's acceptable.

Quote: But the trolls - who don't play the sim - think we're being unreasonable.

Meh, ignore those guys. They're adding nothing here.

the thing is LTB, they have ignored the nbasim but the most upsetting thing is that seble has lied to us before about how this will get done and that will get done (I can say for certainty he told me in the feedback thread the names would get changed and then he would start on the salary structure.)

so if they flat out lie, we have no reason to be ******? we just need to kindly smile and ask please again? in that case,

please fix the sim :-)

please fix the sim:-)

please fix the sim :-)



What do we need to do to get some changes around here

Quote: Originally Posted By garyman on 2/01/2010where are the terms of service and posting rules? can someone provide a link?

the banning sounds pretty subjective to me. and why was chester banned as well? what the hell did he do?

do words like ******* and douchebag count as not following the rules? Or is it ok? Is it ok to call my friend scudmissle a total wanker and f*cktard but I can't say the same things about site staff?

where are the boundaries

i dunno the whole history behind the whole monkee vs seble thing but when we are here asking for a change and nothing gets done, seems that he is pretty justified in being frustrated, like some of the rest of us are

Gary, terms of service is located on the very bottom of this page.

I don't get this ban. wis seems to be making an example of monkee for his past history and not for a current situation.

thnx chris, I'll be sure to carefully read the rules when I get home to make sure I won't get banned next time...

and yeah, I agree w/ u about making monkee an example. but they stated whatever he posted on a date when he wasn't even online was the cause of the banning...

and what about chester? why was he banned?

Quote: Originally Posted By ashamael on 2/01/2010

Quote: Originally posted by garyman on 2/01/2010 basically we can't express our frustration over the sim for fear of being banned now? If we ask for something multiple times over months on end, and nothing gets done we just have to smile and like it, after they said they will make some changes?

seble said we could have our opinions about him in the other thread. well, gee thanks but..

i guess we can't now, huh,that's interesting

exactly. But the trolls - who don't play the sim - think we're being unreasonable

i play this sim - and calling Seble a liar is exactly the type of thing i am talking about - its that crap that will get you banned - it is unacceptable to do that to site staff - especially when there is zero proof - you just come out and say **** without backup

i havent seen one instance in which he has lied - he has actually come on here numerous times explaining the situation and you guys just **** all over him

Lying implies intention to deceive. I don't know that that's what happened. My sense has been more that priorities at WIS changed in the intervening time...resources were allocated differently.

I think we have the right to be mad, frustrated, etc. monkee and others have every right to be disappointed customers. But I don't think that's what this is about.

I would argue we don't have the right to express those frustrations however we want (e.g., name-calling, calling out individuals, profanity) on a commercial website without being subject to rules established by the people who run that business. Seems to me WIS staff have decided they're tired of feeling insulted and abused on their own site.

Whether the banter coming from monkee was in fact insulting and abusive at times is a matter of opinion - and their opinion is ultimately the one that counts. I have less tolerance for it than others, and some would like more of it to be tolerated here.

Like I've said, I support their right to ban any of us. And I support ash's request for some clarity on what constitutes acceptable behavior. I realize it's hard to be precise and I wouldn't want them to get too legalistic about it. Regulating message board debate is a very messy business and there will always be a huge subjective dimension to it, but it would be nice to see some basic rules of the road posted. Most of the other hoops sites I hang out (some of which are community-moderated - and very successfully so) are reasonably clear about such protocols.

Quote: Originally posted by garyman on 2/01/2010thnx chris, I'll be sure to carefully read the rules when I get home to make sure I won't get banned next time...

and yeah, I agree w/ u about making monkee an example. but they stated whatever he posted on a date when he wasn't even online was the cause of the banning...

and what about chester? why was he banned?

Evidently chester is one of monkee's aliases.

Quote: Originally Posted By ashamael on 2/01/2010
gin_ceasar - i've never seen anything you posted have anything positive about anything. I've seen you in one sim league. So why are you even here? You're just a troll, too.

You've seen me in one simleague because you're a noob. I've been on this site since 2001 and have had around 100 nba simleague teams during that time. If I were trolling I'd look for a more entertaining venue than the NBA Simleague forum. Probably something to do with cancer or Jesus, I don't know.

Back on topic - you linked to the feedback thread, in which seble made it clear that he may not be posting in the thread but wanted to use it to stockpile ideas. He reiterated that fact on page 6 when people for some inexplicable reason started ******** about his lack of posts in the thread. Then you, colonels, and monk attacked him 3 posts in a row and the thread went downhill from there. Look at those 5 posts, and try to tell me how he should have responded? How were you helping the sim by derailing the thread from its stated purpose?

gotta run to work now but

rob - in the feedback thread, seble told me the name changes would be easy enough and he would start on the salary structure as soon as he could pry whoever away from the nfl sim to help him. that was about 3 - 4 months ago. if that's not a flat out lie, i dunno what is.

ltb - so we don't have the right to express our sentiments towards seble and the site after he specifically said we can have our opinions about him in the other thread? which implies we can post those opinions as well. they are backpedaling on their own words.

I guess I should add, I think a permanent ban is pretty harsh. Again, I don't know the history, but I would have hoped for (and would still advocate for) something temporary, if the staff really want to make a point. I have sometimes had a problem with monkee's attitude and the tone he uses to get his points across in these threads, but also like his dry wit at times and know he's contributed a lot to this site financially and otherwise.

Quote: Originally posted by garyman on 2/01/2010
rob - in the feedback thread, seble told me the name changes would be easy enough and he would start on the salary structure as soon as he could pry whoever away from the nfl sim to help him. that was about 3 - 4 months ago. if that's not a flat out lie, i dunno what is.

So did he lie...or did circumstances change? Being wrong over time doesn't mean he deliberately said something he knew was untrue.

Quote: Originally posted by garyman on 2/01/2010
ltb - so we don't have the right to express our sentiments towards seble and the site after he specifically said we can have our opinions about him in the other thread? which implies we can post those opinions as well. they are backpedaling on their own words.

Sure we do. At least I haven't seen anything to indicate otherwise. But again, different people have different levels of tolerance for how those sentiments get expressed. This to me is about style, not substance. It's not crazy to me for a commercial website to have and enforce its own idea of civil discourse.