5/7/2010 10:18 AM
Yes.

I mean- wtf do you guys expect? For a team to be assembled solely of rookie contracts and minimum players? Friggin bench players get the full MLE, and JJ is sure as hell worth more than two bench players. By your definition, everyone in the entire league is overpaid.

How could Atlanta have possibly spent their money on something more productive?
5/7/2010 11:28 AM
they already did - his name is Jamal Crawford - he was the one breaking open the lead in the 2nd qtr and keeping it close in the 3rd while JJ spent 44 minutes doing what exactly? locking down Vince? no (Vince had a highly efficient productive night). Maybe he was playing defense on Pietrus & Barnes? - that's a tough night of work there. Was he lighting up the score board? no (he took like 4 shots in the last 15 minutes of the game)

where the f- was he exactly? there are max worthy guys like Wade or Melo or Durant or Bron who will carry their teams in various ways and then there are 2nd tier guys who contribute nicely

sure the economics are messed up and more of those second category guys get overpaid than should but it doesnt change the fact that JJ is not top of the class and so shouldnt get top of the class money

14m per is fine for what he brings but to take him to the next contract tier and expend almost half your cap on just him in this next deal? forget about it
5/7/2010 11:41 AM
Quote: Originally Posted By deanod on 5/07/2010Yes.

I mean- wtf do you guys expect? For a team to be assembled solely of rookie contracts and minimum players? Friggin bench players get the full MLE, and JJ is sure as hell worth more than two bench players. By your definition, everyone in the entire league is overpaid.

How could Atlanta have possibly spent their money on something more productive
If you want to call it picking nits or whatever go for it - but someone who is in that 13th-20th best player in the league range should probably get $11-12.5 M per year. If JJ is your best player, you can absolutely forget about winning a championship - he has an awesome supporting cast and they have no shot in hell of getting to the finals.

And yes, when you look across the league, you can find tons of overpriced players. Look at the current economic environment - salaries for alot of players are going to have to come down. And the cuts aren't going to come to the Lebrons/Wades/Durants - they need to be coming to the guys who aren't top tier and especially role players.

Max deal caliber guys I see out there are Wade, Lebron (among FA's). If Dirk were a couple years younger I'd put him in that bucket. That's it. I don't think you're sniffing a championship with anyone else who is in this year's FA class as your best player.
5/7/2010 12:24 PM
Jamal Crawford is not half the player that JJ is- nice offensive weapon off the bench but he's not concerned with much else other than chucking shots.

So Hawk, you think that if you can't get a top 10 player you should just save your money and put out a crap team until you get lucky?
5/7/2010 12:29 PM
Do you think Ray Allen is worth max money? He played a big role in the Celtics championship. Same with Gasol for the Lakers. Rashard Lewis might do the same for the Magic this year. Even if none of them are the best player, it's worth it for their teams to pay up because they are good enough to make a difference between a championship and no championship in some circumstances.

I mean, fukk, what the hell else do you expect them to spend the money on? 5 Brian Scalabrines? Getting a top 20 player like JJ for the max is actually excellent bang for your buck.
5/7/2010 12:32 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By deanod on 5/07/2010



Jamal Crawford is not half the player that JJ is- nice offensive weapon off the bench but he's not concerned with much else other than chucking shots.

so the fact that not only was he more prolific and more efficient last night but that he had 4 rebounds and 4 assists in 34 minutes to JJ's 2 rebounds and 5 assists in 44 minutes suggests to you that JJ is twice the player? if JJ is twice the player maybe he should start showing up for what constitutes big games in Hawks-land - big time players do have a tendency to show up in big-time situations - that's why they make that big time money

So Hawk, you think that if you can't get a top 10 player you should just save your money and put out a crap team until you get lucky?

no Isiah he thinks you shouldnt be paying someone 20+m when they're only worth 14m just because you can but you go ahead and run those Knicks any old way you want to and see how that works out for you
5/7/2010 12:38 PM
Isiah thinks that he should pay players who aren't worth a roster spot $20M. Almost every contract he gave out or acquired was retarded, and not what I'm talking about. And I don't care to discuss a 1 game sample size, Joe Johnson is way better than Jamal Crawford.

I'm really curious- if you're the Hawks, what do you do instead of signing Joe Johnson? Just tank every year and hope to hit the lottery?
5/7/2010 12:39 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By deanod on 5/07/2010Jamal Crawford is not half the player that JJ is- nice offensive weapon off the bench but he's not concerned with much else other than chucking shots.

So Hawk, you think that if you can't get a top 10 player you should just save your money and put out a crap team until you get lucky
Not a crap team - a value oriented team. And btw, the Rashard Lewis contract was absurd even at the time - not to mention in the coming years.

Allen - different story. At one time you could make the case for him being that top ten player. He was the best player on a team that made the ECF and was the best player on some playoff teams with horrific supporting casts - completely different from JJ who is the best player on a team that won't get to the ECF playing with some very good players.
5/7/2010 1:22 PM
It was a past his prime Ray that won the championship. And the East was crap back then- these Hawks could have absolutely went to the ECF.

Rashard is overpaid but I still don't think it's a bad move by any means. They would be worse off without him and just have a wad of cash to spend on dick.

And your value orientation is screwed up by using LeBron and Wade as your frames of reference. LeBron's fair value is probably something like $100M and Wade's around $60M- only reason why they're only getting $20M is because there's a stupid max. There's a reason why teams have been planning for this summer forever, because either of those guys are amazing values for the max. So of course Joe Johnson is going to look overpaid next to him, it doesn't make him a bad value.

You should try comparing him to normal FA signings, where guys like Dampier and Troy Murphy get $11M a year and Marcin Gortat and DFish (back in the day) get $7M. Basically, the utility curve is very funky because of the max and the cap. Run of the mill rotation players get nearly half as much as the very best players, even though teams are only as good as their best players. It's damn near impossible to land a LBJ or D-Wade, so getting a guy like JJ for the max is pretty much the best you can do in terms of value signings.
5/7/2010 2:43 PM
Yeah, I'd rather run all guys on rookie contracts than DFish for $7 M and Dampier for $11 M. The salary structure in the NBA is beyond fcked up.
5/7/2010 3:20 PM
I mean, those guys are below average values for those prices, but surprisingly not by that much.

The thing about the NBA is that cap room is nearly worthless (with this summer being the exception). So if you have the choice of adding a Joe Johnson or Rashard Lewis with the only opportunity cost coming at the owner's expense, I think it's a move you have to make. In the last decade, who were the best FA signings? Off the top of my head, you have T-Mac, Nash, JJ, Boozer, and Lewis- so if you pass on a Lewis or JJ, what are you saving up for? I'm not counting Billups because he was a lottery ticket, and for every Chauncey there are like 20 Brian Cardinals or Mark Blounts.
5/7/2010 3:23 PM
And you can say that the Hawks weren't going to win a championship either way, but they actually would have been able to contend with slightly better luck. When they signed JJ, they had Smith and Childress coming off their rookie years plus the #2 pick in the draft. If they had drafted CP3 or Deron Williams instead of Marvin, they might have contended for a championship starting in 07-08. Or if they had won the KD lottery the following season, they might be contending now. As it is, at least they can put a quality product on the floor that advanced to the 2nd round in back to back seasons.

Take JJ out of the equation and add one of those players, and they're basically in the same position as the Heat with Wade.
5/7/2010 4:26 PM
Of course the counter-argument is Isiah-Knicks, Philly & Washington this decade. And the other problem is that 9 of the 10 teams to win a title this decade had a KG/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan. Getting a JJ/Lewis (I guess Gasol goes here - but I'd rather have him than those two) is all well and good - but if you don't have that primary guy who is no lower than a top 5 or 6 player, you just spent $15 M a year (and the true cost may be higher because of the tax) to go out in the 1st or 2nd round - yeah, sign me up for that.

And I know that most of my posts indicate that my philosophy is either spend really big - to the point that you're a top 5 team or don't worry about it, don't spend much and build through the draft - but really the JJ/Lewises of the world are absolutely worthless (in my mind) without the guy who can take you to the top. And at that point, I'd rather buy ping pong balls and hope to hit big that way.
5/7/2010 5:10 PM
You can throw an ***-ton of money at a crappy player- doesn't make him good. Those teams all signed players who were past their prime or not very good to begin with, they were dumb moves at the time, and you stray from the topic by bringing them up. None of those 3 teams signed a single player whose value even sniffs JJ/Lewis.

Your argument makes sense if you subscribe to the championship or bust mentality, which doesn't really apply to real life. Do you really think that GM's/owners value a 50 win season with a 2nd round exit the same as a 25 win year? Do you really think that fans prefer the latter if it saves their owner an extra $15M?

Remember when the Celtics traded for Ray Allen and nobody thought it made sense? I was a proponent at the time because I knew we still had Jefferson to offer in a KG package. And if we didn't get KG, hell, at least I wouldn't be disgusted every time I turned on a Celtics game. I believe you know how things turned out.

You're basically saying that the owner saving $15M is worth more than a team adding a player in the top 15-30. Outside of Donald Sterling, you'll be hard pressed to find somebody who agrees with that.
5/7/2010 5:15 PM
here's a question: in the last 30 years aside from the Lakers signing Shaq away from Orlando who has bought themselves a title via free agency (as opposed to drafting/trades)

(and Ray Allen doesnt count because Pierce and KG were far more key to winning that title than he was)
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