Glitch that needs to be fixed (long) Topic

kmasonbx
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I've played against the strategy enough to know it's very hard to stop. The player I used as my example in my original post I totally shut down both the scorers, the player I highlighted went 4-15 and the starter went 4-18 I believe. But for the most part I've been burned by this strategy, I've probably played against this strategy 15 or so times and have only won 3 or less. If you look at my overall record it would seem pretty odd that I'd have so much trouble against a specific strategy when you consider I have pretty even records even against some of the best coaches in the game like gillispie, oldresorter and dcy to name a few. However against this strategy regardless if the coach is bing or somebody else using it I just can't seem to beat it with any consistency.

Saying this strategy doesn't perform as well against top teams, doesn't prove much because NO strategy performs as well against top teams. It doesn't mean that it doesn't perform better then it should.
4/21/2010 12:56 PM
schroedess26
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Well we should be focusing on the defense then should we not? Not just stopping this one strategy? I have heard complaints about all defenses in the game. This one just happens to take the hit or miss of putting all your eggs into one basket.

The point is unless you have stacked team like Bing did your not going to run away from the competition game in and game out all season long. I just think we need to focus on defense first and how that performs and then see what happens here.

Also, just because you beat the best coaches one year does not mean you should win every game. It could just happen that your weakness is at the SG or SF position but I can't say anything cause I wasn't there to see your team or theirs.
4/21/2010 1:09 PM
survivor45
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Quote: Originally posted by kmasonbx on 4/21/2010Survivor, I only have 1 game today, all the rest of my teams are in between seasons. That 1 game is the conference tourney, so I won't be experimenting with distro in that game, lol. I mean I've done this before but only against really bad teams just to see how many points my star player could score. The guy I spoke about who was 3rd in Tark D1 scoring there were several games against really bad teams I let him shoot a bunch and he would shoot well but I've never tried this against teams that had a good chance to beat me.

Cool - if you're in between seasons, then see how many shots you can give your star player in your upcoming exhibition games and post the box score.

I'd kind of like to see one player taking 90% of a team's shots and win, too, due to the "glitch". Should be a fascinating box score.
4/21/2010 1:15 PM
kmasonbx
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Quote: Originally Posted By survivor45 on 4/21/2010
Quote: Originally posted by kmasonbx on 4/21/2010 Survivor, I only have 1 game today, all the rest of my teams are in between seasons. That 1 game is the conference tourney, so I won't be experimenting with distro in that game, lol. I mean I've done this before but only against really bad teams just to see how many points my star player could score. The guy I spoke about who was 3rd in Tark D1 scoring there were several games against really bad teams I let him shoot a bunch and he would shoot well but I've never tried this against teams that had a good chance to beat me

Cool - if you're in between seasons, then see how many shots you can give your star player in your upcoming exhibition games and post the box score.

I'd kind of like to see one player taking 90% of a team's shots and win, too, due to the "glitch". Should be a fascinating box score.


When I said 90% of the shots, I said 90% of the shots when he was on the court. It's pretty impossible to have a guy take a 90% of the team's total shots, simply because he'd have to play 40 minutes and every player sucks when they are tired so it wouldn't be affective at all. That's why "bingball" uses two players to take 90% of the shots so that both only play 17-23 minutes and stay fresh where they play 100% affective.
4/21/2010 1:33 PM
kmasonbx
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Quote: Originally Posted By schroedess26 on 4/21/2010Well we should be focusing on the defense then should we not? Not just stopping this one strategy? I have heard complaints about all defenses in the game. This one just happens to take the hit or miss of putting all your eggs into one basket.

The point is unless you have stacked team like Bing did your not going to run away from the competition game in and game out all season long. I just think we need to focus on defense first and how that performs and then see what happens here.

Also, just because you beat the best coaches one year does not mean you should win every game. It could just happen that your weakness is at the SG or SF position but I can't say anything cause I wasn't there to see your team or theirs
By saying I have near even records against those coaches, I'm not talking about 1 season I'm talking about over my whole HD career. I'm also never weak at SG or SF, in all honestly I'm rarely weak at any position considering with all of my teams that I've been with for a while it's a rarity that I don't win at least 1 game in the NT. But in particular I make sure my perimeter players are studs, my bigs as long as they can rebound and pass I'm happy.
4/21/2010 1:38 PM
summerteeth
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Quote: Originally posted by summerteeth on 4/21/2010
Quote: Originally posted by oldave on 4/21/2010i think this example suggests that the cole/tinsley  team might be better off playing a conventional offense (or at least slightly more conventional offense than what they are currently playing)or at least thats the way i look at it... maybe im missing somehting?
that's how i see it as well. i'm wondering if this would prove true in some of the other examples. time permitting, i may delve in to it later today.

i did a rudimentary analysis on one other team i could find - Amherst - http://www.wisjournal.com/hd/teamprofile/Stats.aspx?tid=5770 - in Smith. pointpiper definitely plays "bing ball" with 2 guards (Collins and Meier - who is a true freshman) jacking up a lot of 3s and letting the big men grab lots of offensive rebounds.

1.375 = Points per Shot for the entire Team
1.366 = PPS for Collins
1.215 = PPS for Meier

as I mentioned, the strategy is a bit better here than for the DI team I checked earlier. however, 7 of the 19 opponents thus far have started the game with a + defense. by and large, those teams definitely limited the PPS of the 2 players by quite a bit. because Amherst rebounds so well, it was able to win most of those 7 games.
4/21/2010 3:17 PM
kmasonbx
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I think the results you found are interesting but it doesn't tell the whole story. The rest of the team is scoring more efficiently but it fails to account for the fact that nearly every shot the other player's on the team attempt are off of putbacks, tip ins and breakaways baskets off of steals which are all very high percentage shots. Now if their distro was upped and Collins and Meier's distros were lowered it's very possible and IMO likely that the PPS for the team will drop.
4/21/2010 3:25 PM
kmasonbx
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I may even experiment alternating from bingball to my regular strategy with my Fitchburg St. team next season just to see if my hypothesis is correct.
4/21/2010 3:26 PM
dalter
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Quote: Originally Posted By summerteeth on 4/21/2010
Quote: Originally posted by summerteeth on 4/21/2010
Quote: Originally posted by oldave on 4/21/201
i think this example suggests that the cole/tinsley team might be better off playing a conventional offense (or at least slightly more conventional offense than what they are currently playing)

or at least thats the way i look at it... maybe im missing somehting?
that's how i see it as well. i'm wondering if this would prove true in some of the other examples. time permitting, i may delve in to it later today.

i did a rudimentary analysis on one other team i could find - Amherst - http://www.wisjournal.com/hd/teamprofile/Stats.aspx?tid=5770 - in Smith. pointpiper definitely plays "bing ball" with 2 guards (Collins & Meier - who is a true freshman) jacking up a lot of 3s and letting the big men grab lots of offensive rebounds.

1.375 = Points per Shot for the entire Team
1.366 = PPS for Collins
1.215 = PPS for Meier

as I mentioned, the strategy is a bit better here than for the DI team I checked earlier. however, 7 of the 19 opponents thus far have started the game with a + defense. by and large, those teams definitely limited the PPS of the 2 players by quite a bit. because Amherst rebounds so well, it was able to win most of those 7 games
Summerteeth, appreciate what you are trying to do here. But the PPS that you have here are badly skewed, because all of the players other than Collins and Meier get their points off putbacks, steals and breakaways, which artificially drives up their PPS quite a lot. So it's not at all a fair (or terribly relevant) comparison.
4/21/2010 4:13 PM
summerteeth
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dalt and kmason - i think we are on similar pages here. I agree that the other 10 guys are mostly scoring off of putbacks, steals and breakaways. this analysis was more to the point that this strategy is more effective in DIII (or DII) than DI.

In the DI team analysis, it almost seemed better for the team NOT to play "bing ball" as the PPS numbers were what I would consider to be very low for the 2 players getting most of the shots.

one other thing i found interesting - Collins and Meier are taking 75.9% of the teams shots but only 63.4% of the teams FTs, which means that the other 10 guys are getting a lot more (end of game) free-bees to help their PPS.
4/21/2010 4:32 PM
jdno
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4/21/2010 9:04 PM
palmettobugs
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I use this approach in Naismith @ D1 Arkansas, Little Rock. I didn't know it was called a "bing" approach, I just wanted my teams to score and score a lot. For some reason, when I had a balanced distribution, I rarely put up over 70 points a game. As soon as I switch my approach and have my 2 SG's lighting it up, my teams generally put up almost 100 PPG.

I have been at ARLR for 6 seasons now. I started chucking it up in season 3. Since then, we are 84-36, we have made the NT 2x and the PT once. We made a Sweet 16 run the 2nd year I employed it. During that time, my prestige jumped from a D- to a C+.

Do I think my guys will make a deep NT run using this strategy? Maybe - maybe not. However, I have more fun looking at the box scores in the morning.
4/22/2010 1:55 PM
Iguana1
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The strategy of loading up one or two perimeter player with all the distro goes back years. Probably back to 2004?

At that time it was addressed with making the double teams more effective. Which resulted in DTs becoming an overly effective shutdown option and within a year many coaches were using the -5 and doubling both guards as their standard defense. Then it seemed a correction was made to lessen the effectiveness of the DT.
4/22/2010 2:20 PM
dalter
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Iguana, small favor:

Can you put together a chart showing all of the HD teams that have used this strategy dating back to 2004, that incorporates their records, posteason performance, points per shot of the players in question and then factor in schedule strength? Also, can you break it down my geographic region?

I figure you should be able to have that done by dinner time, right?
4/22/2010 3:11 PM
swift1976
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I had two centers that were pretty dominant even though they weren't 30 point scorers over their career. I didn't give them ridiculous distros until their jr year.

http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Default.aspx?pid=1307206

This player was very good but we had a shooting guard who was unbelievable. Like 70 per 60 sp 80 per. The strategy was to prevent teams doubling my C or going to -4 or -5. I didn't know anything about this bing strategy but didn't really matter anyway because both players had dominant ratings so they should have been dominant anyway. I upped the C to somewhere between 50 to 80 and the SG got most of the rest. Thinking of it like Ewing and Starks or something like that. I'm sure there are better examples.

http://www.whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerHistory/Default.aspx?pid=1160019

This C was in DII. I didn't really jack up his distro until jr year. The rest of my team wasn't very good except for an unbelievable SF who was a freshmen but also with no IQ. The C was clearly dominant getting around 25 ppg those two seasons as he was player of the year and also got drafted.

In DII and DIII you can have a dominant big so having them score 30 a game is possible but you probably need that constant outside scoring threat there at all times.

It irks me though when I see teams with players per in the 30's barrage me with 3's more than one guy in the 50's get into a rhythm shooting 50%. Unless he is being doubled I don't really see too much of a problem with the 50's per guy. I know that the engine doesn't equate hot and cold shooting but keeping it constant until doubled works for me. You can still have effective strategies to stop the team if not the player and still win the game. I have also been effective at shutting down these players in the past, especially the backup SG. Doubleteams can work if you actually have decent defensive ratings. Don't think any of this would mean anything in DI though since most DI players are the same.
4/22/2010 4:46 PM
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