Yes. Did you watch and remember, almost 30 years later, every play of every game for every team? If not, we need stats to know who was better.

I don't need stats to remember what I saw.  Henderson set the table.  Mattingly finished the job.  Rickey Henderson had a great season, but Don Mattingly was the best player in baseball in 1985.

BTW, Mattingly had 23 first place MVP votes.  Henderson had 0.  (George Brett had the other 5).

Are you arguing that, 28 years later, you and your beloved magical numbers somehow have more wisdom and insight than the 28 voters who voted for AL MVP in 1985?

Yes he is.

That seems a bit retarded, no?

I could get a debate between Henderson or Mattingly. I don't get "well WAR says one is far better than the other, the voters suck".

Posted by tecwrg on 8/24/2013 9:29:00 PM (view original):
I don't need stats to remember what I saw.  Henderson set the table.  Mattingly finished the job.  Rickey Henderson had a great season, but Don Mattingly was the best player in baseball in 1985.

BTW, Mattingly had 23 first place MVP votes.  Henderson had 0.  (George Brett had the other 5).

Are you arguing that, 28 years later, you and your beloved magical numbers somehow have more wisdom and insight than the 28 voters who voted for AL MVP in 1985?

Yes.

We know what happened. The results of every plate appearance for both players has been recorded. The voters were wrong, Henderson was better.

Posted by stinenavy on 8/24/2013 10:01:00 PM (view original):
I could get a debate between Henderson or Mattingly. I don't get "well WAR says one is far better than the other, the voters suck".

Obviously, it's more complicated than that

Posted by bad_luck on 8/24/2013 10:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/24/2013 9:29:00 PM (view original):
I don't need stats to remember what I saw.  Henderson set the table.  Mattingly finished the job.  Rickey Henderson had a great season, but Don Mattingly was the best player in baseball in 1985.

BTW, Mattingly had 23 first place MVP votes.  Henderson had 0.  (George Brett had the other 5).

Are you arguing that, 28 years later, you and your beloved magical numbers somehow have more wisdom and insight than the 28 voters who voted for AL MVP in 1985?

Yes.

We know what happened. The results of every plate appearance for both players has been recorded. The voters were wrong, Henderson was better.

You continue to be a source of great amusement in these forums, with posts like these.

Posted by tecwrg on 8/24/2013 10:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/24/2013 10:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/24/2013 9:29:00 PM (view original):
I don't need stats to remember what I saw.  Henderson set the table.  Mattingly finished the job.  Rickey Henderson had a great season, but Don Mattingly was the best player in baseball in 1985.

BTW, Mattingly had 23 first place MVP votes.  Henderson had 0.  (George Brett had the other 5).

Are you arguing that, 28 years later, you and your beloved magical numbers somehow have more wisdom and insight than the 28 voters who voted for AL MVP in 1985?

Yes.

We know what happened. The results of every plate appearance for both players has been recorded. The voters were wrong, Henderson was better.

You continue to be a source of great amusement in these forums, with posts like these.

Yet, you have zero substance in your argument. Instead of pointing out all the ways that Mattingly was better, you're sticking to, "I don't need any ******* stats, I know what I saw 30 years ago."

Good job.

Rickey puts up comparable offensive stats to Mattingly, and plays a position where it's very difficult to find a guy to put up stats like that.  Rickey also got 70 extra bases (80 steals, 10 CS) with his legs, and that doesn't take into consideration the first to third and first to home on a double, etc.  I was also under the impression that Rickey was an above-average fielder in his 20s.  I didn't see him play then, but that was my assumption.  I'd argue if you took Rickey off that team, they'd lose more games than if you took Mattingly.

Now, if you're going to tell me that Rickey was a selfish ***** that rubbed people the wrong way, and Mattingly was the professional and leader of that ballclub?  Maybe that's true, it's not something that can be measured.  I tend to think things that like are overstated in baseball, but it's an argument.

Posted by tecwrg on 8/24/2013 10:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/24/2013 10:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/24/2013 9:29:00 PM (view original):
I don't need stats to remember what I saw.  Henderson set the table.  Mattingly finished the job.  Rickey Henderson had a great season, but Don Mattingly was the best player in baseball in 1985.

BTW, Mattingly had 23 first place MVP votes.  Henderson had 0.  (George Brett had the other 5).

Are you arguing that, 28 years later, you and your beloved magical numbers somehow have more wisdom and insight than the 28 voters who voted for AL MVP in 1985?

Yes.

We know what happened. The results of every plate appearance for both players has been recorded. The voters were wrong, Henderson was better.

You continue to be a source of great amusement in these forums, with posts like these.

FWIW, there are plenty of times we can look at the past and say "what the hell were they thinking?" I'm confused as to why it was unanimous that Mattingly was more valuable than Rickey was.

Posted by burnsy483 on 8/24/2013 11:08:00 PM (view original):
Rickey puts up comparable offensive stats to Mattingly, and plays a position where it's very difficult to find a guy to put up stats like that.  Rickey also got 70 extra bases (80 steals, 10 CS) with his legs, and that doesn't take into consideration the first to third and first to home on a double, etc.  I was also under the impression that Rickey was an above-average fielder in his 20s.  I didn't see him play then, but that was my assumption.  I'd argue if you took Rickey off that team, they'd lose more games than if you took Mattingly.

Now, if you're going to tell me that Rickey was a selfish ***** that rubbed people the wrong way, and Mattingly was the professional and leader of that ballclub?  Maybe that's true, it's not something that can be measured.  I tend to think things that like are overstated in baseball, but it's an argument.

Rickey was known to take some plays off and not hustle.  Mattingly gave 110% every game.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/24/2013 10:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/24/2013 10:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 8/24/2013 10:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/24/2013 9:29:00 PM (view original):
I don't need stats to remember what I saw.  Henderson set the table.  Mattingly finished the job.  Rickey Henderson had a great season, but Don Mattingly was the best player in baseball in 1985.

BTW, Mattingly had 23 first place MVP votes.  Henderson had 0.  (George Brett had the other 5).

Are you arguing that, 28 years later, you and your beloved magical numbers somehow have more wisdom and insight than the 28 voters who voted for AL MVP in 1985?

Yes.

We know what happened. The results of every plate appearance for both players has been recorded. The voters were wrong, Henderson was better.

You continue to be a source of great amusement in these forums, with posts like these.

Yet, you have zero substance in your argument. Instead of pointing out all the ways that Mattingly was better, you're sticking to, "I don't need any ******* stats, I know what I saw 30 years ago."

Good job.

The funny thing is: what I remember seeing 30 years ago seems to be the same thing the MVP voters saw 30 years ago.

Your argument is: "WAR, ************!!!!"

As I've mentioned numerous times before: baseball is played on the field, not on a web page of "advanced statistics".

Maybe you should try actually watching a game sometime.  You might learn something.  Leave the calculator at home, though.  It will be a distraction.

Posted by bad_luck on 8/24/2013 7:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 8/24/2013 7:05:00 AM (view original):
Rickey had a great year in '85.  Finished third in AL MVP voting.  Only two spots behind his teammate and the AL's best player that year, Don Mattingly.

To say that Rickey was better and "it wasn't even close" is something that only a complete moron would say.

Do you follow and understand the game of baseball?

In 1985 Rickey hit:

.314/.419/.516
24 HR
80 SB
157 OPS+
9.9 WAR

In 1985 Mattingly hit:

.324/.371/.567
35 HR
2 SB
156 OPS+
6.4 WAR

That's not really very close. Rickey was better. 50 points of OBP is worth 100 points of SLG and then you add in the 80 stolen bases and the additional defensive value and it's easy to see that the voters got it wrong.

That looks like more than, "WAR, ************."