All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ichiro's 3000th Hit - 213 to go! First Ballot HOF!
8/26/2013 11:12 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 8:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 6:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 6:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:33:00 PM (view original):
Rickey Henderson was not a very good CF.

And Kenny Lofton deserves the same consideration for the HOF as players like Bernie Williams.   Take a look, say "They had a good BL career.  They should be proud" and move on to someone who's actually worthy.
Like Ichiro????
Lofton was a black guy playing CF for 20 teams.  Ichiro was a rock star.   Hall of FAME.
Probably explains why Mattingly was given an MVP he didn't deserve. 
Dumbest.  Post.  Ever.
Your argument is so compelling.

I'll repeat myself.

A good defensive CF got on base 42%, hit for power, and stole 80 bases.
A ******* magnificent (apparently) defensive 1B got on base 37% and hit for more power (~50 points of SLG).

Easy choice. Henderson.
8/26/2013 11:46 PM
if a stolen base is important concerning errors in past evaluations compared with homeruns and u declare that all homeruns are not the same then add total bases then things get murky and muddy. that is not a way to view what should clearly be seen here. his stolen base totals of eighty that particular year is offset to the lesser reality to those who saw rickey henderson play that season. credit to rickeys skills that maybe get mathematical justice by not overstating an actual amount of bases stolen. meaning that just as with homeruns and other numbers generated by the effects of homeruns then surely not all stolen bases are the same. many of rickeys totals are bound by the scorekeepers who must follow scorekeeping guidelines. nobody discounts all the free uncontested bases they gave him out of pure defensive strategy alone. give rickey credit for maybe 60 powerfully weighted valuable steals since homeruns dont pass your hall of fame criteria. a run scored after a stolen base sequence will never be as valuable as runs scored by a slugger who thoroughly pads his run totals and rbi totals by knocking himself home with one swing. the advantage & odds not rickeys. the advantage & odds never escape the pitcher. your choice of henderson speaks volumes about you and says nothing about rickey or mattingly.
8/27/2013 12:52 AM
think. your scenario creates eight playoff teams generated by eight mvps of the tim raines type. advantage to switch hitters always prevails as a rule and not a guess. these eight mvps must carry their teams to the post season while both lefties and righties often in the same inning. if right handers and left handers are not a fifty-fifty number, then mattingly had the advantage as a batter compared to rickey facing right handers. more right handed pitchers have populated rosters than their left handed teammates, over the entire course of baseball history. rickey stunk up innings facing right handers. mattingly ate them for lunch. when left handed pitchers become the majority then right handed batters will have that known advantage. the coin-flip that robbed rickey of your presumed mvp was tossed long ago and determined long ago that southpaw batters have a higher mean batting average than right handed batters. more koufax means more aaron mvps. more whitey fords make norm cash look even better. rickey and mattingly faced more righthanders in those same innings of yankee run production making mattingly far better as a batter in the middle of the lineup and more dangerous than henderson at the top of the lineup. wake up.
8/27/2013 1:22 AM
Ichiro is a tremendous hitter imo. 

The fact that he actually might get to 3000 hits is sick, as he started playing in the MLB so late.

To be at 2700+ in only his 13th season speaks volumes. He might finish his career as the only player in MLB history to average 200+ hits per season. No one else has ever done it and he is still going to finish this season above 210 per.

Every player ahead of him on the hit list played 18+ seasons. with the exception of Sisler (one of the greatest hitters to ever play the game) who logged 15 seasons and retired with only 2812. Ichiro should pass him sometime early next summer.
8/27/2013 6:02 AM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 11:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 8:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 6:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 6:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:33:00 PM (view original):
Rickey Henderson was not a very good CF.

And Kenny Lofton deserves the same consideration for the HOF as players like Bernie Williams.   Take a look, say "They had a good BL career.  They should be proud" and move on to someone who's actually worthy.
Like Ichiro????
Lofton was a black guy playing CF for 20 teams.  Ichiro was a rock star.   Hall of FAME.
Probably explains why Mattingly was given an MVP he didn't deserve. 
Dumbest.  Post.  Ever.
Your argument is so compelling.

I'll repeat myself.

A good defensive CF got on base 42%, hit for power, and stole 80 bases.
A ******* magnificent (apparently) defensive 1B got on base 37% and hit for more power (~50 points of SLG).

Easy choice. Henderson.
More brilliant and in-depth analytic baseball insight by Perfesser Einstein.

"I can name that tune in three notes: position, OBP and SLG.  Oh, and also WAR, ************!!!"

BTW . . . Henderson was not a "good defensive CF".  You're possibly the only person in the history of the planet who ever suggested he was.
8/27/2013 8:55 AM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 6:02:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 11:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/26/2013 8:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 6:46:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/26/2013 6:42:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:33:00 PM (view original):
Rickey Henderson was not a very good CF.

And Kenny Lofton deserves the same consideration for the HOF as players like Bernie Williams.   Take a look, say "They had a good BL career.  They should be proud" and move on to someone who's actually worthy.
Like Ichiro????
Lofton was a black guy playing CF for 20 teams.  Ichiro was a rock star.   Hall of FAME.
Probably explains why Mattingly was given an MVP he didn't deserve. 
Dumbest.  Post.  Ever.
Your argument is so compelling.

I'll repeat myself.

A good defensive CF got on base 42%, hit for power, and stole 80 bases.
A ******* magnificent (apparently) defensive 1B got on base 37% and hit for more power (~50 points of SLG).

Easy choice. Henderson.
More brilliant and in-depth analytic baseball insight by Perfesser Einstein.

"I can name that tune in three notes: position, OBP and SLG.  Oh, and also WAR, ************!!!"

BTW . . . Henderson was not a "good defensive CF".  You're possibly the only person in the history of the planet who ever suggested he was.
It's certainly not true, as statnerds will point to his defensive metrics and claim he was very good in 1985.  I'll tend to ignore it mostly.

If Rickey was average in center, and Mattingly was great at 1B, I'd still take the guy who has a higher OBP considering they had basically the same OPS, and stole 80 bases.  Almost impossible to find a CF who did what Rickey did.
8/27/2013 8:56 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:43:00 PM (view original):
Henderson had a weak arm and didn't really take good angles in CF.   He was fast.   I can't recall his "read" on balls but he could have been a lot better at getting to balls in the gap.  However, he didn't like CF because it tired his legs.   Rickey says Rickey wants to steal not chase down fly balls.
I thought I resolved this "Good/great CF" nonsense yesterday. 
8/27/2013 8:58 AM

Rickey was probably slightly below average in CF and Mattingly was fantastic at 1B.  That said, Henderson likely still brought more value with the glove.   But stop with this "good/great CF" ****.   It doesn't apply to Rickey.   Rickey says **** the fielding ****, Rickey likes to run bases.

8/27/2013 9:14 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 8:56:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:43:00 PM (view original):
Henderson had a weak arm and didn't really take good angles in CF.   He was fast.   I can't recall his "read" on balls but he could have been a lot better at getting to balls in the gap.  However, he didn't like CF because it tired his legs.   Rickey says Rickey wants to steal not chase down fly balls.
I thought I resolved this "Good/great CF" nonsense yesterday. 
You claiming he wasn't a good CF doesn't mean he wasn't a good CF.  It appears he had great range based on the amount of balls he got to, so give something else to refute that.
8/27/2013 9:17 AM
Were Niekro, Guidry, Whitson, etc fly ball pitchers?
8/27/2013 9:21 AM
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:15:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 8:56:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:43:00 PM (view original):
Henderson had a weak arm and didn't really take good angles in CF.   He was fast.   I can't recall his "read" on balls but he could have been a lot better at getting to balls in the gap.  However, he didn't like CF because it tired his legs.   Rickey says Rickey wants to steal not chase down fly balls.
I thought I resolved this "Good/great CF" nonsense yesterday. 
You claiming he wasn't a good CF doesn't mean he wasn't a good CF.  It appears he had great range based on the amount of balls he got to, so give something else to refute that.
9 errors, .980 fielding percentage and being replaced in CF over 13% of the time.   Unless, of course, you're going to argue that he was being PH for those 18 times.
8/27/2013 9:28 AM
The fielding percentage isn't very far off from average, but being replaced 18 times is telling.  I suppose that's fair.  That said, he did reach a ton of fly balls.  Were Yankee pitchers in the mid 80s fly ball pitchers typically?
8/27/2013 9:34 AM
FWIW, I looked up his game log, and most of the time he came out because his team was up or down by a large margin.  Strange that a ballplayer in his mid 20s is being rested late in games so much, but yea, there's that.
8/27/2013 9:34 AM
I can't honestly answer that one.  There was a lot of room out there so a fast guy that wasn't a complete buffoon would reach an abnormal amount of FB.  

Edit:  Looked up '85 staff.    .87 GO to 1 FO.  So, yeah, they were flyball pitchers. 
8/27/2013 9:35 AM
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 9:21:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 9:15:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/27/2013 8:56:00 AM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 8/26/2013 6:43:00 PM (view original):
Henderson had a weak arm and didn't really take good angles in CF.   He was fast.   I can't recall his "read" on balls but he could have been a lot better at getting to balls in the gap.  However, he didn't like CF because it tired his legs.   Rickey says Rickey wants to steal not chase down fly balls.
I thought I resolved this "Good/great CF" nonsense yesterday. 
You claiming he wasn't a good CF doesn't mean he wasn't a good CF.  It appears he had great range based on the amount of balls he got to, so give something else to refute that.
9 errors, .980 fielding percentage and being replaced in CF over 13% of the time.   Unless, of course, you're going to argue that he was being PH for those 18 times.
Even if he was a bad CF, he still had more glove value than a great 1B.

This is an easy choice, Hendrson was more valuable.
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