Ichiro's 3000th Hit - 142 to go! First Ballot HOF! Topic

burnsy483
Posts: 6848 (0)
Veteran
1 1 26
Prospect
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 1:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 12:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 12:37:00 PM (view original):
I did not do that with Rof.  I used it as backing evidence to the general knowledge that Henderson had a weak arm.  One of your magical advanced statistics even backs that up.

Henderson was also not a "league average" CF.  He was below average.  Don't you think that, with his offensive abilities, if he was a league average CF he would have played more than 2 fulltime seasons at the position?
Look, you wanted to use total zone, not me. Go complain to your mom.

Who knows why Henderson moved off CF. Maybe he hated it. Maybe he really wasn't very good overall. Maybe it wore him out and would have reduced his offensive effectiveness. Regardless, in 1985, he was at least league average, likely better than league average.

Going back to offense, pick a better-than-BA stat -- wOBA, wRC+, OPS, OPS+, oWAR...whatever. All of them will put Rickey equal to or better than Mattingly in 1985.

Even ignoring the 80 stolen bases, how can you pick the 1B over the CF in this situation?
You didn't answer this question.
Mattingly led the major leagues in extra base hits, total bases and RBI's.  He had 48 more total bases (nearly 15% more) than the #2 guy in the American League (Brett).  The Yankees had the second bast record in the American League in 1985, and he carried them in the second half of the season.

I watched the games.  I remember the season.  Henderson may have set the table, but Mattingly carried that team on his back.

That's what defines an MVP.  Not statistics on a web page.
Do games in the 2nd half count more than games in the 1st half?
8/27/2013 2:06 PM
bad_luck
Posts: 21761 (0)
Hall of Famer
48 1 10
Prospect
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 2:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 1:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 12:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 12:37:00 PM (view original):
I did not do that with Rof.  I used it as backing evidence to the general knowledge that Henderson had a weak arm.  One of your magical advanced statistics even backs that up.

Henderson was also not a "league average" CF.  He was below average.  Don't you think that, with his offensive abilities, if he was a league average CF he would have played more than 2 fulltime seasons at the position?
Look, you wanted to use total zone, not me. Go complain to your mom.

Who knows why Henderson moved off CF. Maybe he hated it. Maybe he really wasn't very good overall. Maybe it wore him out and would have reduced his offensive effectiveness. Regardless, in 1985, he was at least league average, likely better than league average.

Going back to offense, pick a better-than-BA stat -- wOBA, wRC+, OPS, OPS+, oWAR...whatever. All of them will put Rickey equal to or better than Mattingly in 1985.

Even ignoring the 80 stolen bases, how can you pick the 1B over the CF in this situation?
You didn't answer this question.
Mattingly led the major leagues in extra base hits, total bases and RBI's.  He had 48 more total bases (nearly 15% more) than the #2 guy in the American League (Brett).  The Yankees had the second bast record in the American League in 1985, and he carried them in the second half of the season.

I watched the games.  I remember the season.  Henderson may have set the table, but Mattingly carried that team on his back.

That's what defines an MVP.  Not statistics on a web page.
So, you're saying **** what the stats say, I don't care if Henderson was better, Mattingly carried the team to a second place finish?
You do realize that RBI, total bases, and extra base hits are "statistics on a web page" also, right Grandpa?
8/27/2013 2:06 PM
burnsy483
Posts: 6848 (0)
Veteran
1 1 26
Prospect
"That's what defines an MVP (carrying a team on his back).  Not statistics on a web page."

It's funny that you go from this, to arguing Henderson isn't good using an advanced defensive metric, and then back to this.
8/27/2013 2:07 PM
lad_buck
Posts: 167 (0)
Prospect
2
Prospect
We bet baseball here. Using numbers correctly, to find weight and value, to take advantage of bookmakers who rely upon such numbers as wins & losses, at home or on the road, on artificial turf & on grass. The listed starting pitchers in each game have the greatest weight in determining wagering lines. Those bookmakers follow history. Whether favorites, or underdogs, history shows that a game featuring MScott & DGooden, indoors on turf, can be beaten when the number of total runs scored by both teams is assumed by bookmakers to even-out the monies that come in from both sides of the over/under total. If you have seen no aces in the deck, then betting wisdom urges you to raise your bet on the next hand. This year's Major League Baseball season is no different. One can make valuable money whether CKershaw wins, or loses. Why are you even posting in this thread about things that have value ?  Your numbers are unreliable and twisted to make futile arguments. Seek to change them, supporting what is real in baseball, instead ?
8/27/2013 2:14 PM
tecwrg
Posts: 18996 (0)
Hall of Famer
4 1 154 32 129
Prospect
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 2:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 1:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 12:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 12:37:00 PM (view original):
I did not do that with Rof.  I used it as backing evidence to the general knowledge that Henderson had a weak arm.  One of your magical advanced statistics even backs that up.

Henderson was also not a "league average" CF.  He was below average.  Don't you think that, with his offensive abilities, if he was a league average CF he would have played more than 2 fulltime seasons at the position?
Look, you wanted to use total zone, not me. Go complain to your mom.

Who knows why Henderson moved off CF. Maybe he hated it. Maybe he really wasn't very good overall. Maybe it wore him out and would have reduced his offensive effectiveness. Regardless, in 1985, he was at least league average, likely better than league average.

Going back to offense, pick a better-than-BA stat -- wOBA, wRC+, OPS, OPS+, oWAR...whatever. All of them will put Rickey equal to or better than Mattingly in 1985.

Even ignoring the 80 stolen bases, how can you pick the 1B over the CF in this situation?
You didn't answer this question.
Mattingly led the major leagues in extra base hits, total bases and RBI's.  He had 48 more total bases (nearly 15% more) than the #2 guy in the American League (Brett).  The Yankees had the second bast record in the American League in 1985, and he carried them in the second half of the season.

I watched the games.  I remember the season.  Henderson may have set the table, but Mattingly carried that team on his back.

That's what defines an MVP.  Not statistics on a web page.
So, you're saying **** what the stats say, I don't care if Henderson was better, Mattingly carried the team to a second place finish?

Are you going to argue that Henderson carried the team to a second place finish?

8/27/2013 2:15 PM
winner77
Posts: 546 (0)
Hall of Famer
210
Prospect
1985 Brett was actually second in OBP (.436 behind Boggs @ .450), he led in Slg% with a .585 clip, and his On-Base-+SLG was a league leading 1.022.

We might just want to argue that he got robbed out of the MVP, and not Henderson.

8/27/2013 2:15 PM
bad_luck
Posts: 21761 (0)
Hall of Famer
48 1 10
Prospect
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 2:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 2:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 1:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 12:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 12:37:00 PM (view original):
I did not do that with Rof.  I used it as backing evidence to the general knowledge that Henderson had a weak arm.  One of your magical advanced statistics even backs that up.

Henderson was also not a "league average" CF.  He was below average.  Don't you think that, with his offensive abilities, if he was a league average CF he would have played more than 2 fulltime seasons at the position?
Look, you wanted to use total zone, not me. Go complain to your mom.

Who knows why Henderson moved off CF. Maybe he hated it. Maybe he really wasn't very good overall. Maybe it wore him out and would have reduced his offensive effectiveness. Regardless, in 1985, he was at least league average, likely better than league average.

Going back to offense, pick a better-than-BA stat -- wOBA, wRC+, OPS, OPS+, oWAR...whatever. All of them will put Rickey equal to or better than Mattingly in 1985.

Even ignoring the 80 stolen bases, how can you pick the 1B over the CF in this situation?
You didn't answer this question.
Mattingly led the major leagues in extra base hits, total bases and RBI's.  He had 48 more total bases (nearly 15% more) than the #2 guy in the American League (Brett).  The Yankees had the second bast record in the American League in 1985, and he carried them in the second half of the season.

I watched the games.  I remember the season.  Henderson may have set the table, but Mattingly carried that team on his back.

That's what defines an MVP.  Not statistics on a web page.
So, you're saying **** what the stats say, I don't care if Henderson was better, Mattingly carried the team to a second place finish?

Are you going to argue that Henderson carried the team to a second place finish?

Nope, I'm arguing that Henderson was better at baseball than Mattingly in 1985.
8/27/2013 2:19 PM
burnsy483
Posts: 6848 (0)
Veteran
1 1 26
Prospect
Posted by winner77 on 8/27/2013 2:15:00 PM (view original):
1985 Brett was actually second in OBP (.436 behind Boggs @ .450), he led in Slg% with a .585 clip, and his On-Base-+SLG was a league leading 1.022.

We might just want to argue that he got robbed out of the MVP, and not Henderson.

Yes, I made this point.  Brett should have won.
8/27/2013 2:21 PM
mchalesarmy
Posts: 1123 (0)
Veteran
20
Prospect
Posted by lad_buck on 8/27/2013 11:25:00 AM (view original):
Posted by mchalesarmy on 8/27/2013 1:22:00 AM (view original):
Ichiro is a tremendous hitter imo. 

The fact that he actually might get to 3000 hits is sick, as he started playing in the MLB so late.

To be at 2700+ in only his 13th season speaks volumes. He might finish his career as the only player in MLB history to average 200+ hits per season. No one else has ever done it and he is still going to finish this season above 210 per.

Every player ahead of him on the hit list played 18+ seasons. with the exception of Sisler (one of the greatest hitters to ever play the game) who logged 15 seasons and retired with only 2812. Ichiro should pass him sometime early next summer.
this is an excellent post. from a sportswriter no doubt. wonderfully influential as it focuses solely upon an eye catching hit totals and of course the subsequent batting averages that such numbers produce. this is the type of post that validates willie mcgee as the 1985 national league mvp. the batting title in any given season shows the most successful batter in any given season. that pitcher success rate against hitters like mcgee and ichiro weigh heavily as having value to the considerations made when voting for the hall of fame. the slugging and on base percentages have no influence on real sportswrtiters as those numbers have no bearing on any aspect of the hall of fame vote. batting average simply says more than anything that can be added. ichiro consistently beat pitchers his entire career so far.
I would disagree with the assessment "the slugging and OBP have no influence..."

But we are talking about Ichiro, so I look at what Ichiro excelled at. If speaking on Jim Thome, I wouldn't focus on BA or steals, because Thome was a basher. 

Baseball is a game of role players. A lineup can be helped by both the Ichiros as well as the Thomes. 

Ichiro is a hit machine. One of the very best to ever play the game.

8/27/2013 2:22 PM
winner77
Posts: 546 (0)
Hall of Famer
210
Prospect
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 2:21:00 PM (view original):
Posted by winner77 on 8/27/2013 2:15:00 PM (view original):
1985 Brett was actually second in OBP (.436 behind Boggs @ .450), he led in Slg% with a .585 clip, and his On-Base-+SLG was a league leading 1.022.

We might just want to argue that he got robbed out of the MVP, and not Henderson.

Yes, I made this point.  Brett should have won.
Honestly, all 3 (Mattingly, Brett and Rickey) could make a valid argument for the award that year.  In most years, there is a clear cut winner, but 1985 was a closer race.



8/27/2013 2:23 PM
tecwrg
Posts: 18996 (0)
Hall of Famer
4 1 154 32 129
Prospect
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/27/2013 2:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 1:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 12:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 12:37:00 PM (view original):
I did not do that with Rof.  I used it as backing evidence to the general knowledge that Henderson had a weak arm.  One of your magical advanced statistics even backs that up.

Henderson was also not a "league average" CF.  He was below average.  Don't you think that, with his offensive abilities, if he was a league average CF he would have played more than 2 fulltime seasons at the position?
Look, you wanted to use total zone, not me. Go complain to your mom.

Who knows why Henderson moved off CF. Maybe he hated it. Maybe he really wasn't very good overall. Maybe it wore him out and would have reduced his offensive effectiveness. Regardless, in 1985, he was at least league average, likely better than league average.

Going back to offense, pick a better-than-BA stat -- wOBA, wRC+, OPS, OPS+, oWAR...whatever. All of them will put Rickey equal to or better than Mattingly in 1985.

Even ignoring the 80 stolen bases, how can you pick the 1B over the CF in this situation?
You didn't answer this question.
Mattingly led the major leagues in extra base hits, total bases and RBI's.  He had 48 more total bases (nearly 15% more) than the #2 guy in the American League (Brett).  The Yankees had the second bast record in the American League in 1985, and he carried them in the second half of the season.

I watched the games.  I remember the season.  Henderson may have set the table, but Mattingly carried that team on his back.

That's what defines an MVP.  Not statistics on a web page.
Do games in the 2nd half count more than games in the 1st half?
All games count the same.  But in the season progresses, games take on the feeling of a little more importance as you get closer to the end.  Performance is a little more scrutinized to see how players perform under pressure.

Have you ever noticed that late September games for teams chasing a playoff berth seem to be a little more high-profile than a Tuesday afternoon game in mid-May?
8/27/2013 2:24 PM
bad_luck
Posts: 21761 (0)
Hall of Famer
48 1 10
Prospect
Posted by winner77 on 8/27/2013 2:15:00 PM (view original):
1985 Brett was actually second in OBP (.436 behind Boggs @ .450), he led in Slg% with a .585 clip, and his On-Base-+SLG was a league leading 1.022.

We might just want to argue that he got robbed out of the MVP, and not Henderson.

I think Brett would have been a good choice also. He smoked Mattingly and Henderson in OBP/SLG. If he had had Henderson getting on base 42% of the time ahead of him, he probably would have been the one to get 140+ RBI, not Mattingly.

He definitely was the best offensive player in baseball in 85.
8/27/2013 2:24 PM
tecwrg
Posts: 18996 (0)
Hall of Famer
4 1 154 32 129
Prospect
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 2:20:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 2:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 2:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 1:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 12:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/27/2013 12:37:00 PM (view original):
I did not do that with Rof.  I used it as backing evidence to the general knowledge that Henderson had a weak arm.  One of your magical advanced statistics even backs that up.

Henderson was also not a "league average" CF.  He was below average.  Don't you think that, with his offensive abilities, if he was a league average CF he would have played more than 2 fulltime seasons at the position?
Look, you wanted to use total zone, not me. Go complain to your mom.

Who knows why Henderson moved off CF. Maybe he hated it. Maybe he really wasn't very good overall. Maybe it wore him out and would have reduced his offensive effectiveness. Regardless, in 1985, he was at least league average, likely better than league average.

Going back to offense, pick a better-than-BA stat -- wOBA, wRC+, OPS, OPS+, oWAR...whatever. All of them will put Rickey equal to or better than Mattingly in 1985.

Even ignoring the 80 stolen bases, how can you pick the 1B over the CF in this situation?
You didn't answer this question.
Mattingly led the major leagues in extra base hits, total bases and RBI's.  He had 48 more total bases (nearly 15% more) than the #2 guy in the American League (Brett).  The Yankees had the second bast record in the American League in 1985, and he carried them in the second half of the season.

I watched the games.  I remember the season.  Henderson may have set the table, but Mattingly carried that team on his back.

That's what defines an MVP.  Not statistics on a web page.
So, you're saying **** what the stats say, I don't care if Henderson was better, Mattingly carried the team to a second place finish?

Are you going to argue that Henderson carried the team to a second place finish?

Nope, I'm arguing that Henderson was better at baseball than Mattingly in 1985.
"Better", or "better and it's not even close"?
8/27/2013 2:26 PM
burnsy483
Posts: 6848 (0)
Veteran
1 1 26
Prospect
Posted by bad_luck on 8/27/2013 2:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by winner77 on 8/27/2013 2:15:00 PM (view original):
1985 Brett was actually second in OBP (.436 behind Boggs @ .450), he led in Slg% with a .585 clip, and his On-Base-+SLG was a league leading 1.022.

We might just want to argue that he got robbed out of the MVP, and not Henderson.

I think Brett would have been a good choice also. He smoked Mattingly and Henderson in OBP/SLG. If he had had Henderson getting on base 42% of the time ahead of him, he probably would have been the one to get 140+ RBI, not Mattingly.

He definitely was the best offensive player in baseball in 85.
And he won a GG...apparently people thought he was good defensively too.
8/27/2013 2:27 PM
burnsy483
Posts: 6848 (0)
Veteran
1 1 26
Prospect
I'm thinking Mattingly paid off the voters.  That's the explanation.
8/27/2013 2:28 PM
◂ Prev 1...28|29|30|31|32...45 Next ▸
Ichiro's 3000th Hit - 142 to go! First Ballot HOF! Topic
△Top△Bottom

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2024 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.