All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ichiro's 3000th Hit - 253 to go! First Ballot HOF!
8/29/2013 2:49 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/29/2013 2:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/29/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
What exactly am I locked in on?

Feel free to make the argument that Mattingly was better in 1985. It will rest on 50ish points of slugging.

My entire point is that the 50 points of slugging is not nearly as valuable as Henderson's 50 point lead in OBP, Henderson's defensive value, and Henderson's base running.

That looks like the opposite of tunnel vision. I'm considering the entire contributions of both players. You're trying to double and triple count SLG and ignore everything else.
Well you certainly seem to be locked in to the idea that Henderson "added value with his glove" because of your inability to apply appropriate context and understanding to certain defensive stats, and a throwaway comment by MikeT, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

Critical thinking isn't part of your skill set.
What planet are you on, grandpa???

It's pretty clear, to just about anyone with a brain, that an average CF is more valuable defensively than an above average 1B.

And, yes, I'm not changing my opinion that Henderson was more valuable. Just like you're "locked on" to the idea that Mattingly was more valuable despite ample evidence to the contrary.


8/29/2013 2:50 PM
Posted by The Taint on 8/29/2013 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/29/2013 2:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by The Taint on 8/29/2013 2:40:00 PM (view original):
Ever been in a press box?
There are tons of people in the press box. But there were only 28 voters for the MVP that year. I'm guessing most weren't NY writers.
Plenty if coverage of other games in a press box. You are giving the beat writers less credit than they deserve as well. They know what's going on around the league.
And so do fans. And so do people in the future thanks to stats.

You are somehow assigning greater powers of evaluation to beat writers in other cities because the Yankees were being shown on a TV in the background along with 8 other games.
8/29/2013 2:51 PM
Posted by The Taint on 8/29/2013 2:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/29/2013 2:42:00 PM (view original):
Not that he wasn't great in late and close situations (though he did lose about 100 points in slugging with RISP). But you don't need to have actually watched the games to know that. Nor would watching every single game clue you in on the fact that Mattingly's OBP was .384 with RISP and .371 over the entire year.
When you watch games, follow games closely you know which guys are always comin through, and which aren't. RISP was actually a stat that once got much more play.
So did RBI.

You know why it doesn't anymore? Because it isn't a real skill.
8/29/2013 2:52 PM
You're right, and all 28 AL MVP voters in 1985 were wrong.  Every single one of them.

Got it.
8/29/2013 2:54 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/29/2013 2:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by The Taint on 8/29/2013 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/29/2013 2:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by The Taint on 8/29/2013 2:40:00 PM (view original):
Ever been in a press box?
There are tons of people in the press box. But there were only 28 voters for the MVP that year. I'm guessing most weren't NY writers.
Plenty if coverage of other games in a press box. You are giving the beat writers less credit than they deserve as well. They know what's going on around the league.
And so do fans. And so do people in the future thanks to stats.

You are somehow assigning greater powers of evaluation to beat writers in other cities because the Yankees were being shown on a TV in the background along with 8 other games.
I'm giving more credence to beat writers because they know more about baseball than you do, at least the Mariners guys do..and I'm sure they are just your average beat writers.
8/29/2013 2:54 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/29/2013 2:52:00 PM (view original):
You're right, and all 28 AL MVP voters in 1985 were wrong.  Every single one of them.

Got it.
Just 23. It would have been reasonable to vote for Brett.
8/29/2013 2:56 PM
Posted by The Taint on 8/29/2013 2:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/29/2013 2:50:00 PM (view original):
Posted by The Taint on 8/29/2013 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/29/2013 2:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by The Taint on 8/29/2013 2:40:00 PM (view original):
Ever been in a press box?
There are tons of people in the press box. But there were only 28 voters for the MVP that year. I'm guessing most weren't NY writers.
Plenty if coverage of other games in a press box. You are giving the beat writers less credit than they deserve as well. They know what's going on around the league.
And so do fans. And so do people in the future thanks to stats.

You are somehow assigning greater powers of evaluation to beat writers in other cities because the Yankees were being shown on a TV in the background along with 8 other games.
I'm giving more credence to beat writers because they know more about baseball than you do, at least the Mariners guys do..and I'm sure they are just your average beat writers.
I don't necessarily buy that. If you want to make the argument that Mattingly was better, you should be able to do it without an appeal to authority. (Especially when the track record of said authority ain't great)
8/29/2013 2:56 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/29/2013 2:52:00 PM (view original):
You're right, and all 28 AL MVP voters in 1985 were wrong.  Every single one of them.

Got it.
This does still confuse me.  

If part of it is a reputation that Mattingly built of coming through when it mattered, it's somewhat false.  He played worse with RISP that year.  Late and close, he was a touch better.
8/29/2013 3:00 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 8/29/2013 2:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 8/29/2013 2:52:00 PM (view original):
You're right, and all 28 AL MVP voters in 1985 were wrong.  Every single one of them.

Got it.
Just 23. It would have been reasonable to vote for Brett.
Maybe it will help if I turn this into a statistic for you.

82.14% of the 1985 AL MVP voters had no clue about baseball.

Is that right?
8/29/2013 3:03 PM (edited)
"(Especially when the track record of said authority ain't great)"

Yea...I looked up the AL MVP voting from the year before, for ***** and giggles...they gave it to a reliever.
 
...

Ironically, Mattingly finished 5th, with no first place votes, and looking at it quickly, I probably would have voted for him to win it.  Did he not have the reputation of a great player who got hits when it mattered then?

EDIT: Looking more than just quickly - Murray would get my edge.
8/29/2013 3:03 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/29/2013 2:43:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 8/29/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
What exactly am I locked in on?

Feel free to make the argument that Mattingly was better in 1985. It will rest on 50ish points of slugging.

My entire point is that the 50 points of slugging is not nearly as valuable as Henderson's 50 point lead in OBP, Henderson's defensive value, and Henderson's base running.

That looks like the opposite of tunnel vision. I'm considering the entire contributions of both players. You're trying to double and triple count SLG and ignore everything else.
Well you certainly seem to be locked in to the idea that Henderson "added value with his glove" because of your inability to apply appropriate context and understanding to certain defensive stats, and a throwaway comment by MikeT, despite ample evidence to the contrary.

Critical thinking isn't part of your skill set.
critical thinking = maybe, maybe not, benefit of the doubt is both given to FRAA and dumb sportswriters, maybe.

critical thinking = guessing when maybes fail

critical thinking = criticizing a maybe not is traumatic and shocking to the maybe family, living on the brain-wave highway adjacent to ambivalent city.

critical thinking = when equations add up to solutions that slap everybody in the forum

critical thinking = there couldn't possibly be 5 aspects to critical thinking, maybe.
8/29/2013 3:05 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/29/2013 3:03:00 PM (view original):
"(Especially when the track record of said authority ain't great)"

Yea...I looked up the AL MVP voting from the year before, for ***** and giggles...they gave it to a reliever.
 
...

Ironically, Mattingly finished 5th, with no first place votes, and looking at it quickly, I probably would have voted for him to win it.  Did he not have the reputation of a great player who got hits when it mattered then?

EDIT: Looking more than just quickly - Murray would get my edge.
Because pitchers can't be MVPs?
8/29/2013 3:09 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 8/29/2013 3:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 8/29/2013 3:03:00 PM (view original):
"(Especially when the track record of said authority ain't great)"

Yea...I looked up the AL MVP voting from the year before, for ***** and giggles...they gave it to a reliever.
 
...

Ironically, Mattingly finished 5th, with no first place votes, and looking at it quickly, I probably would have voted for him to win it.  Did he not have the reputation of a great player who got hits when it mattered then?

EDIT: Looking more than just quickly - Murray would get my edge.
Because pitchers can't be MVPs?
Relievers, no.  Although I looked a little more closely (I should pay attention more than I do sometimes) and said reliever had 140 innings pitched.  So not your average reliever.  Still, I'm confident in saying that Murray and Mattingly were more valuable than Willie Hernandez.

I would argue that in today's game, no, a relief pitcher should not win MVP.
8/29/2013 3:09 PM
When asked what the most important statistic is for valuing a hitter, Ted Williams said "Slugging percentage."

I go with Ted.

8/29/2013 3:12 PM
Posted by winner77 on 8/29/2013 3:09:00 PM (view original):
When asked what the most important statistic is for valuing a hitter, Ted Williams said "Slugging percentage."

I go with Ted.

I agree in principle. But SLG isnt weighted correctly. Williams would like wOBA.
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