The Packers went 15-1.  Using logic previously stated in this thread....  their defense was effective.  I mean, no other NFL team won 15 games.  They made the playoffs as a #1 seed.  Only New England did that.  15-1 is the point of playing, right?

Or was it more that Aaron Rodgers and the offense bailed them out of more atrociously poor performances and won DESPITE the Packer Defense in the majority of those Packer wins?  The Packer Defense had some moments where they shined, helping to win games (Atlanta comes to mind after getting down 14-0, the defense pitched a shutout from there on in a 25-14 win), but overall, the defense was pretty epically bad, and the packers won despite their defense's play

Similarly, can it not be said that Tim Tebow had some games where he played well at times, and led the Broncos to a win here or there, but overall, his play was poor, and the Broncos won despite him, rather than because of him?  I would never say that Tebow didnt do anything this season to help his team.  Of course he did.  But there were too many 7 point or fewer victories over teams who did not make postseason, and huge blowout losses to postseason teams to think that the Broncos (without CONSIDERABLE improvement from Tebow) will be a playoff team in 2012.  A 1st place schedule might be asking a lot of the Broncos next year.  They will face the Chiefs, Raiders & Chargers twice.  They will also face the Steelers, Patriots & Texans.  They will also face the Saints, Falcons, Panthers, Bucs, Bengals, Browns & Ravens.  In that bunch, the Browns & Bucs are the only games that look to be relatively easy outside their division games.  It is a tougher schedule.  However, ya never know, right??

E - defense in this case is measured by yards per game. It's already been stated that teams like the Packers and Patriots score more, thus giving opposing teams more drives. And since those teams are usually trailing, they pass more. Thus those two defenses are going to face more drives and pass attempts than anyone else - they should be worst in yards per game.

As Aikman and Buck discussed yesterday, it's time to change the way defenses are measured. The Packers led the NFL in INTs this season. Plus they have Hawk, Matthews and Raji - that is not a bad defense.

Tebow and the Broncos defense complimented each other well this season. The D kept them in it while Tebow struggled to find his groove, then he took advantage of that in the 4th quarter and OT to drive his team to victory. One wouldn't have done much without the other in most of those wins.

Posted by The Taint on 1/16/2012 6:03:00 PM (view original):
So are people suggesting he will improve as a QB in a pro style offense, or improve in the abomination they were trotting out there for him this season? Because that abomination isn't gonna work in the NFL anymore than the wildcat did.

Most likely, it would need to be a hybrid of the standard pro-style offense and what they were running this year.  He's never going to be your classic pocket-passer, that's just not his strength.  But there's no reason to believe that he cannot improve his mechanics and that the team cannot design an effective offense that fits both his current talents and what he can eventually improve to.

Posted by tecwrg on 1/16/2012 5:44:00 PM (view original):
Nobody is saying that he will definitively make it as a successful NFL QB.  But it just seems a bit premature to definitively claim that he cannot.  It comes across as a bit self-serving, just like Colin Cowherd's anti-Tebow rhetoric, which he seems to have adopted as his schtick.

I don't listen to Colin Cowherd so I cannot offer a comment. In this thread, the absurd logic and selective facts being peddled by Jt and Mikey is what comes across as self serving.

Colin Cowherd is the most obnoxious, annoying, know-nothing SOB to ever be given a show on ESPN. Cant stand the fella.

Posted by willgibson on 1/16/2012 5:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 1/16/2012 3:09:00 PM (view original):
Tebow's development will depend on one big thing....  THE RIGHT TEACHER.

He clearly has the will to improve and the athletic ability to improve.  If he can find a BillWalsh-type guru who understands quarterback mechanics and footwork, he has a chance.  Bill took a similar skill set with Steve Young (albeit with fewer mechanical throwing defects) and made him a HOFer.  Unfortunately for Tebow, Bill is dead.

Elway is the exact WRONG person to teach/mentor Tebow because he is a throwing freak of nature.  As a matter of fact, Steve Young would probably be the best person to play Miyagi to Tebow's LaRusso.

Ah, so he needs the right guru. So if Tebow fails next year, Mikey and JT can add Elway to the very long list they compiled of the people who've failed to properly nurture Tim along with Fox and his conservative nature, receivers who drop passes (real and imagined), the offensive line, the defence, blah, blah, blah.

It's interesting many people assume Tebow can make it because of his work habits. It's as if nobody else in the NFL is willing to work as hard as him to attain their goal. That kind of narrative among fans and the media may explain why Tebow is resented by his fellow pros through no fault of his own. It's all about bigging him up for reasons that might have little to do with football. Anyway Tebow's attitude and lifestyle  will help him but it's going to take more than good study habits and godly morals for him to be an effective NFL quarterback.

It also is interesting to hear about how so many quarterbacks are entitled and unwilling to put in the work that TIm is apparently willing to put in. It says a lot more about the posters than it does about the players when people choose to comment on the sense of entitlement and work ethic of people they've never met. 

Will, have you ever heard of Mark Sanchez?  Jeff George?  Todd Marijuanavich?  Ryan Leaf?  JaMarcus Russell?

There are a shitload of highly touted, heavily hyped quarterback prototypes with cannon arms that don't put in the time to get better.  They rest on their college stats and their college laurels, and think that it will be adequate to win in the NFL.  Those are the guys whose teammates bail on them and end up out of the league before their time.  However, I haven't heard ANYTHING but positive things about Tebow from the Denver players.  Compare his situation to Sanchez, who actually got his team to an AFC Championship.  Apparently, his teammates and coaches don't think he's willing to put in the work to get to the next level, and so they've thrown him under the bus.

It says a lot about your lack of current knowledge about what is actually going on that you're willing to comment about things you clearly have NFI about.

So does Denver go into this draft and free agency looking to draft/sign players like usual, or do they look for players that are more likely to succeed in the non-conventional offensive style they ran this year? Do they draft a QB like Darron Thomas? Totally forget about signing someone like Matt Flynn? Its an interesting question.

Posted by eschwartz67 on 1/16/2012 6:29:00 PM (view original):
The Packers went 15-1.  Using logic previously stated in this thread....  their defense was effective.  I mean, no other NFL team won 15 games.  They made the playoffs as a #1 seed.  Only New England did that.  15-1 is the point of playing, right?

Or was it more that Aaron Rodgers and the offense bailed them out of more atrociously poor performances and won DESPITE the Packer Defense in the majority of those Packer wins?  The Packer Defense had some moments where they shined, helping to win games (Atlanta comes to mind after getting down 14-0, the defense pitched a shutout from there on in a 25-14 win), but overall, the defense was pretty epically bad, and the packers won despite their defense's play

Similarly, can it not be said that Tim Tebow had some games where he played well at times, and led the Broncos to a win here or there, but overall, his play was poor, and the Broncos won despite him, rather than because of him?  I would never say that Tebow didnt do anything this season to help his team.  Of course he did.  But there were too many 7 point or fewer victories over teams who did not make postseason, and huge blowout losses to postseason teams to think that the Broncos (without CONSIDERABLE improvement from Tebow) will be a playoff team in 2012.  A 1st place schedule might be asking a lot of the Broncos next year.  They will face the Chiefs, Raiders & Chargers twice.  They will also face the Steelers, Patriots & Texans.  They will also face the Saints, Falcons, Panthers, Bucs, Bengals, Browns & Ravens.  In that bunch, the Browns & Bucs are the only games that look to be relatively easy outside their division games.  It is a tougher schedule.  However, ya never know, right??

I think the browns are on the way up also. I don't think they'll be a doormat for too much longer.

Elway today said that Tebow will be considered next season's starting QB "going into training camp".  So it sounds like they're definitely not going all-in yet on him.

Posted by toddcommish on 1/16/2012 8:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by willgibson on 1/16/2012 5:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 1/16/2012 3:09:00 PM (view original):
Tebow's development will depend on one big thing....  THE RIGHT TEACHER.

He clearly has the will to improve and the athletic ability to improve.  If he can find a BillWalsh-type guru who understands quarterback mechanics and footwork, he has a chance.  Bill took a similar skill set with Steve Young (albeit with fewer mechanical throwing defects) and made him a HOFer.  Unfortunately for Tebow, Bill is dead.

Elway is the exact WRONG person to teach/mentor Tebow because he is a throwing freak of nature.  As a matter of fact, Steve Young would probably be the best person to play Miyagi to Tebow's LaRusso.

Ah, so he needs the right guru. So if Tebow fails next year, Mikey and JT can add Elway to the very long list they compiled of the people who've failed to properly nurture Tim along with Fox and his conservative nature, receivers who drop passes (real and imagined), the offensive line, the defence, blah, blah, blah.

It's interesting many people assume Tebow can make it because of his work habits. It's as if nobody else in the NFL is willing to work as hard as him to attain their goal. That kind of narrative among fans and the media may explain why Tebow is resented by his fellow pros through no fault of his own. It's all about bigging him up for reasons that might have little to do with football. Anyway Tebow's attitude and lifestyle  will help him but it's going to take more than good study habits and godly morals for him to be an effective NFL quarterback.

It also is interesting to hear about how so many quarterbacks are entitled and unwilling to put in the work that TIm is apparently willing to put in. It says a lot more about the posters than it does about the players when people choose to comment on the sense of entitlement and work ethic of people they've never met. 

Will, have you ever heard of Mark Sanchez?  Jeff George?  Todd Marijuanavich?  Ryan Leaf?  JaMarcus Russell?

There are a shitload of highly touted, heavily hyped quarterback prototypes with cannon arms that don't put in the time to get better.  They rest on their college stats and their college laurels, and think that it will be adequate to win in the NFL.  Those are the guys whose teammates bail on them and end up out of the league before their time.  However, I haven't heard ANYTHING but positive things about Tebow from the Denver players.  Compare his situation to Sanchez, who actually got his team to an AFC Championship.  Apparently, his teammates and coaches don't think he's willing to put in the work to get to the next level, and so they've thrown him under the bus.

It says a lot about your lack of current knowledge about what is actually going on that you're willing to comment about things you clearly have NFI about.

Yeah, Santonio Holmes and his cohorts commented on Sanchez. Very reliable source. LT says Sanchez puts in the work. Who's word would you take?

Posted by tecwrg on 1/16/2012 8:40:00 PM (view original):
Elway today said that Tebow will be considered next season's starting QB "going into training camp".  So it sounds like they're definitely not going all-in yet on him.

Yes, but free agency and the draft are in March and April.

Posted by The Taint on 1/16/2012 6:03:00 PM (view original):
So are people suggesting he will improve as a QB in a pro style offense, or improve in the abomination they were trotting out there for him this season? Because that abomination isn't gonna work in the NFL anymore than the wildcat did.

Why can't that offense be effective?  Should I ask you if you know what a Read Option is?

Posted by The Taint on 1/16/2012 8:37:00 PM (view original):
So does Denver go into this draft and free agency looking to draft/sign players like usual, or do they look for players that are more likely to succeed in the non-conventional offensive style they ran this year? Do they draft a QB like Darron Thomas? Totally forget about signing someone like Matt Flynn? Its an interesting question.

There are a lot of college QBs who'll be around in the 5th round who run the Spread Option.    If Denver is even somewhat committed to Tebow and some version of the Read Option, they'll take one.   I'll say this again, Alex Smith ran a very similar offense as Tebow in college.   Meyer coached them both. 

Posted by Jtpsops on 1/16/2012 6:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by slashtc on 1/16/2012 3:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/16/2012 2:14:00 PM (view original):
It's funny because when I say "Player X went from 48 to 51 to 55 percent", it never gets acknowledged.  And virtually EVERY QB who started when he was young went thru the same process.   Too many incompletions/interceptions.   And virtually EVERY ONE of them improved in S2-S3. 

There's no guarantee that he'll get any better.  But history is on his side.

You sir are the expert at ignoring valid points people make.  I don't think you get the right to complain if/when it happens to you.

The reason people are ignoring you is because of the points you've argued vehemently, only to later confess you don't understand what's being argued or didn't see the play/game in question. You've massacred your own credibility.

LOL.  Nice try.  You must have confessed you don't know what you're talking about.  I did no such thing.  It appears that I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Posted by The Taint on 1/16/2012 8:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 1/16/2012 8:40:00 PM (view original):
Elway today said that Tebow will be considered next season's starting QB "going into training camp".  So it sounds like they're definitely not going all-in yet on him.

Yes, but free agency and the draft are in March and April.

Right.  I take it from Elway's comments that they are not yet committing themselves to Tebow, so I wouldn't expect them to draft or sign guys who will be best suited for any one particular offensive scheme.