All Forums > SimLeague Football > NFL > Cam Newton GOAT Thread
11/11/2011 11:52 AM

               pts/g  yds/pass  yds/rush  yards/play  1stD/G     TO/G
2011       23.4       7.5           4.8            6.4               22.1          1.5
2010       12.2       4.3           4.3            4.3               14.1          2.3

This is why Newton's performance blows me away.  Pretty much every rookie QB who has had success has been greatly aided by their environment.  They get drafted to a team with a good defense and a power running game.  They just manage the game, limit their mistakes, and make an occasional play.

Carolina was an offensive wasteland last year, and they had a terrible defense too.  They scored less than half as many points as their opponents.  It was pretty much the worst possible situation for a rookie QB, because other than Steve Smith he was entering a situation with pretty much no support whatsoever.  Not only has Cam succeeded, but he has excelled while carrying pretty much the entire workload.  Other QB's inserted into similar situations as rookies (Peyton, Bradford) are blown away by him.

11/11/2011 11:53 AM
Posted by Jtpsops on 11/11/2011 11:46:00 AM (view original):
So far we've established that passing yards and pass attempts/game are important (since Cam is high in both), but INTs, TD/INT ratio and wins are not important, since Cam doesn't score well in those categories.

Anymore criteria you arbitrarily use to define a good QB, deano?
I've explained my logic behind everything in great detail, if you just want to ignore it and declare my criteria arbitrary then you can go **** yourself.
11/11/2011 12:09 PM
Explain to me how a team with D'Angelo Williams, Jonathan Stewart and Steve Smith is an "offensive wasteland".

Are you arbitrarily labeling them as crap too, just to feed your argument about how historically awesome Newton is?
11/11/2011 12:12 PM
I'm not ignoring anything. I've said Cam is a good QB and having a great rookie year. But your'e ignoring some key stats that work against him having the greatest rookie season ever.

How many times now have you written of a key stat just because "it doesn't matter" to you or it just doesn't feel important?  You've got a boner for Cam and you're doing everything you can to make your argument hold up.
11/11/2011 12:16 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/11/2011 9:57:00 AM (view original):
No.

THREAD CLOSED.

Should have ended here.
11/11/2011 12:20 PM
Dean...   your argument is a valid one.  But it is just that.  An argument.  One could "argue" that Marino or Roethlisberger was better and have valid points.  I also like the point brought up on the previous page that said that Newton has had chances to take leads late and failed.  To be fair, he also succeeded once, and had his defense give it back (N.O. scored with 50 seconds left to take the lead).  I also think that with most NFL pundits saying Newton was a disaster waiting to happen, the fact that I could only point to two or three QBs in the modern era who had better rookie seasons is impressive.  Remember this though, there were MANY who had better seasons in their 2nd season after throwing like 2 passes as a rookie, and MLB would have counted them as eligible for ROY because days on roster doesnt count for exclusion of the award, but playing time does.  The NFL counts days on roster as exclusion of rookie of the year.  In my opinion, Brady's 2001 season should count as his "rookie" season because in 2000 he had one snap.
11/11/2011 12:23 PM
Posted by deanod on 11/11/2011 10:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by moranis on 11/11/2011 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Frankly there have been so many NBA players with far greater rookies seasons then Cam that you can just get rid of any talk of major sports history.

As for football, no, but at least you could make an argument that Cam would be in that discussion (if he continues along at a similar pace). 

I mean Jim Brown won the AP MVP as a rookie and did so by leading the league in Rushing Yards (he had 942 next closest was 700), Rushing TD's (9 next closest 7),  Rushing Yards per game (78.5, next 58.3), he was 4th in Yards from Scrimmage, 6th in All Purpose Yards, 2nd in touches, etc.  I'd say a MVP season eclipses Cam.

I disagree because QB is so much more important than RB, and RB's have no business winning MVP anyway.   RB is also an easier position to pick up, as rookies routinely have solid years.

Right now Cam is a top 7, arguably top 4-5 QB in the NFL.  Really I think the only performance who comes close is Marino, but I still would probs give the edge to Cam.

There haven't been that many better NBA rookies.

This is ridiculous "Right now Cam is a top 7, arguably top 4-5 QB in the NFL".  

You should be punched in the face for saying it. 
11/11/2011 12:24 PM
Let's also not forget we're halfway through the season.  And Newton has games left against Detroit, NO, TB x2, Atlanta and Houston. 
11/11/2011 12:30 PM
Posted by eschwartz67 on 11/11/2011 11:36:00 AM (view original):
Dan Marino - 58.4% completion percentage  2210 yds  20 TD  6 INT in 9 starts with a 7-2 record.

Ben Roethlisberger  66.4% completion percentage  2621 yds  17 TD  11 INT with a 13-0 record.

And I should have looked up Joe Flacco.  He was 11-5 as a rookie with decent stats.  All better than Cam Newton.  Cam is the best QB this year.  Not of all time. 
Jim Kelly had a fairly solid rookie season as well.  He finished 1986, 4th in completions, 8th in attempts, 6th in yards, 5th in TD's, 8th in Passer Rating, 10th in Y/G, 8th in Y/A, 7th in comp %, and negatively tied for 10th in INT's.  Pretty damn good season overall.

More recently, Matt Ryan had an excellent statistical season as a rookie.   61.1%, 3440 yards, 16 TD's, 11 INT, 2.5% INT rate, 7.9 Y/A, Rating 87.7 team went from 4-12 to 11-5 and he took every snap.

11/11/2011 12:30 PM
Posted by eschwartz67 on 11/11/2011 12:20:00 PM (view original):
Dean...   your argument is a valid one.  But it is just that.  An argument.  One could "argue" that Marino or Roethlisberger was better and have valid points.  I also like the point brought up on the previous page that said that Newton has had chances to take leads late and failed.  To be fair, he also succeeded once, and had his defense give it back (N.O. scored with 50 seconds left to take the lead).  I also think that with most NFL pundits saying Newton was a disaster waiting to happen, the fact that I could only point to two or three QBs in the modern era who had better rookie seasons is impressive.  Remember this though, there were MANY who had better seasons in their 2nd season after throwing like 2 passes as a rookie, and MLB would have counted them as eligible for ROY because days on roster doesnt count for exclusion of the award, but playing time does.  The NFL counts days on roster as exclusion of rookie of the year.  In my opinion, Brady's 2001 season should count as his "rookie" season because in 2000 he had one snap.

Because QB's tend to perform better with a year on the sidelines, which is why so many of them throw just 2 passes their rookie year.  They're not ready to step in and instantly play at a high level upon being drafted.

Somebody like Rodgers definitely benefitted from spending 3 years on the bench before being asked to do anything.  It hurts his assault on all-time cumulative stats, but it also makes his career rating look a lot rosier than QB's who took bumps and bruises as a rookie.

As the biggest Brady fanboy on the planet, his '01 season doesn't compare to what Newton's doing this year.  Basically the sentiment was that he was playing well, we were winning, and he inspired hope.  But even after he won the SB I don't think people were anticipating a HoF career, just that he would be a rock solid QB of the future.

11/11/2011 12:35 PM
Posted by eschwartz67 on 11/11/2011 12:20:00 PM (view original):
Dean...   your argument is a valid one.  But it is just that.  An argument.  One could "argue" that Marino or Roethlisberger was better and have valid points.  I also like the point brought up on the previous page that said that Newton has had chances to take leads late and failed.  To be fair, he also succeeded once, and had his defense give it back (N.O. scored with 50 seconds left to take the lead).  I also think that with most NFL pundits saying Newton was a disaster waiting to happen, the fact that I could only point to two or three QBs in the modern era who had better rookie seasons is impressive.  Remember this though, there were MANY who had better seasons in their 2nd season after throwing like 2 passes as a rookie, and MLB would have counted them as eligible for ROY because days on roster doesnt count for exclusion of the award, but playing time does.  The NFL counts days on roster as exclusion of rookie of the year.  In my opinion, Brady's 2001 season should count as his "rookie" season because in 2000 he had one snap.
I'm not buying that because the NFL is just a different beast in which being involved in practices, learning the playbook, and being in the environment can make you more able to be successful.
11/11/2011 12:36 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/11/2011 12:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deanod on 11/11/2011 10:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by moranis on 11/11/2011 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Frankly there have been so many NBA players with far greater rookies seasons then Cam that you can just get rid of any talk of major sports history.

As for football, no, but at least you could make an argument that Cam would be in that discussion (if he continues along at a similar pace). 

I mean Jim Brown won the AP MVP as a rookie and did so by leading the league in Rushing Yards (he had 942 next closest was 700), Rushing TD's (9 next closest 7),  Rushing Yards per game (78.5, next 58.3), he was 4th in Yards from Scrimmage, 6th in All Purpose Yards, 2nd in touches, etc.  I'd say a MVP season eclipses Cam.

I disagree because QB is so much more important than RB, and RB's have no business winning MVP anyway.   RB is also an easier position to pick up, as rookies routinely have solid years.

Right now Cam is a top 7, arguably top 4-5 QB in the NFL.  Really I think the only performance who comes close is Marino, but I still would probs give the edge to Cam.

There haven't been that many better NBA rookies.

This is ridiculous "Right now Cam is a top 7, arguably top 4-5 QB in the NFL".  

You should be punched in the face for saying it. 

Brady/Brees/Rodgers are the creme da la creme

then the next tier is Cam/Vick/Rape/Eli/Stafford.  Rivers would be there but he sucks this year.  After that it's the Romos and Schaubs of the world who clearly aren't on Cam's level.

I know you hate him and all but it's true.

11/11/2011 12:37 PM
If Newton finishes this season 11-3, leads his team to the Superbowl and has an INT % of 2.9 or better, I'll kiss your ***.
11/11/2011 12:39 PM
Posted by deanod on 11/11/2011 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 11/11/2011 12:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by deanod on 11/11/2011 10:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by moranis on 11/11/2011 10:47:00 AM (view original):
Frankly there have been so many NBA players with far greater rookies seasons then Cam that you can just get rid of any talk of major sports history.

As for football, no, but at least you could make an argument that Cam would be in that discussion (if he continues along at a similar pace). 

I mean Jim Brown won the AP MVP as a rookie and did so by leading the league in Rushing Yards (he had 942 next closest was 700), Rushing TD's (9 next closest 7),  Rushing Yards per game (78.5, next 58.3), he was 4th in Yards from Scrimmage, 6th in All Purpose Yards, 2nd in touches, etc.  I'd say a MVP season eclipses Cam.

I disagree because QB is so much more important than RB, and RB's have no business winning MVP anyway.   RB is also an easier position to pick up, as rookies routinely have solid years.

Right now Cam is a top 7, arguably top 4-5 QB in the NFL.  Really I think the only performance who comes close is Marino, but I still would probs give the edge to Cam.

There haven't been that many better NBA rookies.

This is ridiculous "Right now Cam is a top 7, arguably top 4-5 QB in the NFL".  

You should be punched in the face for saying it. 

Brady/Brees/Rodgers are the creme da la creme

then the next tier is Cam/Vick/Rape/Eli/Stafford.  Rivers would be there but he sucks this year.  After that it's the Romos and Schaubs of the world who clearly aren't on Cam's level.

I know you hate him and all but it's true.

You get dumber with each post.
11/11/2011 12:44 PM
It's just so hilarious that Cam's 2-6 record and all his INTs are the fault of his team, and yet Brady, Big Ben, et al. did well and went to Superbowls because of their defenses and running games.

I guess all Tebow's sacks are the fault of his offensive line, and his incompletions are because his WR just aren't doing enough to go up and get the ball.
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