Recruiting - Post Update Topic

naturopath
Posts: 255 (0)
Hall of Famer
2 286 237 10
Prospect
Posted by damauler12 on 11/22/2011 5:10:00 PM (view original):
I think it would be great after the 50th report comes back and instead of saying things like...

"Did Devin Wheeler like what he saw at my last game? I think I gave him a lot to be excited about. I'm sure that your guys took some good notes about my game, and recognized that I give 110% both on the field and off. Here's a few more things to keep in mind, Coach:

Thwap! I love the sound of a collision.
My fundamentals are solid. I don't think I need much work there, Coach."

The recruit starts saying things like...

"Was that Devin Wheeler at my game again? WTF is that guy trying to date me? Just because I said I give 110% both on and off the field doesn't mean I will teabag him!!! Here's a few things to keep in mind, Coach:

Thwap is the sound Wheeler will hear if he try's to Sandusky me!!!"

For fun I am going to try 1,200 phone calls and see what the recruit says!!!



damauler, this is the hardest I've ever laughed in these forums in the 5 years I've been here. My 8 year old is asking me what's wrong because I'm crying from laughing so hard.
11/24/2011 9:47 PM
hlbart
Posts: 75 (0)
Hall of Famer
10 1 6 5 291 2
Prospect
Devin Wheeler just likes the recruit's "solid" fundamentals.
11/25/2011 10:21 AM
damauler12
Posts: 486 (0)
Hall of Famer
177
Prospect
Lol...glad I could make you guys laugh!!!

I wish I was as funny as ermackey but alas I am not!!! I mean...nothing is funnier than being told on 3 separate occasions by the guy who has ACCESS TO THE FRIGGEN CODE that nothing has changed in regards to recruiting...and then sticking by your guns and saying it has changed!!! Maybe if we are lucky he will keep responding to this thread and keep it alive for all eternity so we will have a laugh every day here in the forums!!!
11/25/2011 10:35 AM
mduncanhogs
Posts: 1103 (0)
Hall of Famer
127 60
Prospect
Posted by ermackey on 11/23/2011 10:59:00 PM (view original):
Once again, there are reports from multiple owners saying that recruiting against sims is harder after the update. I suggest this is given some attention.
Dude.  You are wrong.  You are only making yourself look really stupid by continuing this pointless fight.  NORBERT HAS ACCESS TO THE CODE.  He reviewed the code.  THERE HAS BEEN NO CHANGE.  Many, many D1A coaches, myself included, have posted that they experienced what you are are talking about BEFORE THE FREAKING UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!!  I had it happen multiple times before the update.  There are just some Sims that are harder to knock off that others.  It is part of the game.  Maybe you were lucky and didn't run into it before the update, but it was there.  LET IT GO!!!
11/25/2011 10:59 AM
ermackey
Posts: 849 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 202 366 4
Prospect
Posted by mduncanhogs on 11/25/2011 10:59:00 AM (view original):
Posted by ermackey on 11/23/2011 10:59:00 PM (view original):
Once again, there are reports from multiple owners saying that recruiting against sims is harder after the update. I suggest this is given some attention.
Dude.  You are wrong.  You are only making yourself look really stupid by continuing this pointless fight.  NORBERT HAS ACCESS TO THE CODE.  He reviewed the code.  THERE HAS BEEN NO CHANGE.  Many, many D1A coaches, myself included, have posted that they experienced what you are are talking about BEFORE THE FREAKING UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!!  I had it happen multiple times before the update.  There are just some Sims that are harder to knock off that others.  It is part of the game.  Maybe you were lucky and didn't run into it before the update, but it was there.  LET IT GO!!!
Maybe you need to reread my previous post where acknowledged that he did not make any change to the code. You just restated what I posted in that maybe I was just lucky. However, the fact that I went from zero to 4 cases of severe cases certainly got my attention. The fact that this is a problem at all should concern most of you. This needs to be looked into.

Here was the post to which I am referring:
This is the part were are keying on:  "However, we have found that some recruits get hit up a lot harder from a Sim AI school than others, so these will be more difficult to recruit against.  If you run up against one of these recruits, it will be tougher than what you might expect." No disrespect intended. From my {and some other owners) perspective, this is "change" because I have never experienced players this hard to turn yellow. From your perspective, you did not "change" the code. But the two are not exclusive. We are seeing something new even if you didn't change anything with recruiting. Maybe it is the butterfly effect in the code. Maybe I lucked through 600 seasons and just ran into 3 of them coincidentally after the update. But what you say was always the case was not observed to the same degree by me prior to the update compared to now.

11/25/2011 2:43 PM (edited)
tnscout
Posts: 222 (0)
All Star
3 27 1
Prospect
Ok, let's see if I can mediate this a tad.

Ermackey, the problem with this thread is that you had tried to refute that there have been no changes in D1A recruiting.  Granted, most people are posting about your recruiting procedures, which is neither here nor there.  The topic on hand is the difficulty you had in recruiting several players this season.  Norbert stated that this has always been the case as the code has not been changed for D1A and D1AA.

You made this statement in an earlier post within this thread: " I trust that they did not intentionally change anything in D1 recruiting, but there has been a change in the effect. I assume there is a hiden unintended consequence."

Now that you're speaking about the "butterfly effect", you're speaking my language.  With recruiting, it is the very definition of "chaotic movement".  The money spent by coaches (both human and SIM) are determining factors in the recruiting equilibria.  The initial conditions of the recruits (undecided prior to recruiting) are going to change based on effort and variables of coaches.  A SIM that is harder to knock off is no different than battling a human coach.  Norton stated there are SIM coaches that are going to recruit certain players harder than other SIMs.  What determines this?  I doubt any coach knows the answer to this.  But the fact remains: It has always been like this.  Like you said, it's possible that this is the first encounter that you had with this.

As you stated, "From my {and some other owners) perspective, this is "change" because I have never experienced players this hard to turn yellow. From your perspective, you did not "change" the code. But the two are not exclusive."

Ummm....yes, they are exclusive.  Known condition (unchanged code) meeting an unfamiliar but persistent condition (first time encountering this) are very much separate and do exclude each other.  Just because you had never encountered this doesn't mean it's not been there.  That of course is dependent on the fact that this is the case.  With that said, yes it would be "change" for you.  This change has nothing to do with the update though.  I think the only problem is that you keep referring to the update when you talk about this new "unknown".  I have to side with Norbert on this.  He said nothing has been changed at our level.  As communicative as he's been, and as willing to listen to us, I have no worries about his trying to mislead us. 

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you are trying to make.  I just think the meaning is getting lost in translation.  It's hard to chalk this up to chaos theory with the mention of the butterfly effect.  All equilibria are known.  Initial conditions are known.  Both have been unchanged with verification by Norbert.  That leaves us with your second mentioned option, it's something you haven't encountered before.

I think instead of saying something has changed, it would be better to say "I'm encountering something new, what the hell is up with this?".  Maybe forward progress with that approach would meet less resistance.

Sorry for the long post....I'm full of turkey and gravy and watching the LSU and Arkansas game.
11/25/2011 4:13 PM (edited)
ermackey
Posts: 849 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 202 366 4
Prospect
Posted by tnscout on 11/25/2011 4:13:00 PM (view original):
Ok, let's see if I can mediate this a tad.

Ermackey, the problem with this thread is that you had tried to refute that there have been no changes in D1A recruiting.  Granted, most people are posting about your recruiting procedures, which is neither here nor there.  The topic on hand is the difficulty you had in recruiting several players this season.  Norbert stated that this has always been the case as the code has not been changed for D1A and D1AA.

You made this statement in an earlier post within this thread: " I trust that they did not intentionally change anything in D1 recruiting, but there has been a change in the effect. I assume there is a hiden unintended consequence."

Now that you're speaking about the "butterfly effect", you're speaking my language.  With recruiting, it is the very definition of "chaotic movement".  The money spent by coaches (both human and SIM) are determining factors in the recruiting equilibria.  The initial conditions of the recruits (undecided prior to recruiting) are going to change based on effort and variables of coaches.  A SIM that is harder to knock off is no different than battling a human coach.  Norton stated there are SIM coaches that are going to recruit certain players harder than other SIMs.  What determines this?  I doubt any coach knows the answer to this.  But the fact remains: It has always been like this.  Like you said, it's possible that this is the first encounter that you had with this.

As you stated, "From my {and some other owners) perspective, this is "change" because I have never experienced players this hard to turn yellow. From your perspective, you did not "change" the code. But the two are not exclusive."

Ummm....yes, they are exclusive.  Known condition (unchanged code) meeting an unfamiliar but persistent condition (first time encountering this) are very much separate and do exclude each other.  Just because you had never encountered this doesn't mean it's not been there.  That of course is dependent on the fact that this is the case.  With that said, yes it would be "change" for you.  This change has nothing to do with the update though.  I think the only problem is that you keep referring to the update when you talk about this new "unknown".  I have to side with Norbert on this.  He said nothing has been changed at our level.  As communicative as he's been, and as willing to listen to us, I have no worries about his trying to mislead us. 

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you are trying to make.  I just think the meaning is getting lost in translation.  It's hard to chalk this up to chaos theory with the mention of the butterfly effect.  All equilibria are known.  Initial conditions are known.  Both have been unchanged with verification by Norbert.  That leaves us with your second mentioned option, it's something you haven't encountered before.

I think instead of saying something has changed, it would be better to say "I'm encountering something new, what the hell is up with this?".  Maybe forward progress with that approach would meet less resistance.

Sorry for the long post....I'm full of turkey and gravy and watching the LSU and Arkansas game.
tnscout,
It sounds like you and I are thinking along the same lines. I too trust Norbert when he says he did not change code with 1A recruiting. I am also busy watching the Arkansas/LSU game and will also stay brief. However, consider these possibilities in regards to equilibrium:

1. The possibility that a reference exists in the code of which Norbert is unaware where the changes he implemented in DII and DIII created a unintended shift in equilibria (upward squeeze, for example) that led to unintended consequences.
2. The shift to more SIM teams may have created a shift in equilibria in how recruiting priorities are identified and weighted by computer programming rather than human decision-making (Consider the writings of Herbert Simon in AI versus Human Decision Making),
3. A combination of the 2 may exist, and/or
4. No problem exists and my experience is an outlier.

All of these possibilities (plus more) exist. Regardless, I feel that there is a problem and believe that it is getting worse. We will see soon with new worlds entering post-update recruiting. My intention at this point is to simply keep the thread on topic rather than allow it to be derailed into a troll fight or about recruiting methods.

I appreciate your positive input.
11/25/2011 5:22 PM
ej1757
Posts: 23 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 42 4
Prospect
Posted by jay9 on 11/22/2011 11:23:00 AM (view original):
I agree with mduncanhogs instant classic thread!
11/26/2011 10:28 AM
ej1757
Posts: 23 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 42 4
Prospect
Posted by tnscout on 11/25/2011 4:13:00 PM (view original):
Ok, let's see if I can mediate this a tad.

Ermackey, the problem with this thread is that you had tried to refute that there have been no changes in D1A recruiting.  Granted, most people are posting about your recruiting procedures, which is neither here nor there.  The topic on hand is the difficulty you had in recruiting several players this season.  Norbert stated that this has always been the case as the code has not been changed for D1A and D1AA.

You made this statement in an earlier post within this thread: " I trust that they did not intentionally change anything in D1 recruiting, but there has been a change in the effect. I assume there is a hiden unintended consequence."

Now that you're speaking about the "butterfly effect", you're speaking my language.  With recruiting, it is the very definition of "chaotic movement".  The money spent by coaches (both human and SIM) are determining factors in the recruiting equilibria.  The initial conditions of the recruits (undecided prior to recruiting) are going to change based on effort and variables of coaches.  A SIM that is harder to knock off is no different than battling a human coach.  Norton stated there are SIM coaches that are going to recruit certain players harder than other SIMs.  What determines this?  I doubt any coach knows the answer to this.  But the fact remains: It has always been like this.  Like you said, it's possible that this is the first encounter that you had with this.

As you stated, "From my {and some other owners) perspective, this is "change" because I have never experienced players this hard to turn yellow. From your perspective, you did not "change" the code. But the two are not exclusive."

Ummm....yes, they are exclusive.  Known condition (unchanged code) meeting an unfamiliar but persistent condition (first time encountering this) are very much separate and do exclude each other.  Just because you had never encountered this doesn't mean it's not been there.  That of course is dependent on the fact that this is the case.  With that said, yes it would be "change" for you.  This change has nothing to do with the update though.  I think the only problem is that you keep referring to the update when you talk about this new "unknown".  I have to side with Norbert on this.  He said nothing has been changed at our level.  As communicative as he's been, and as willing to listen to us, I have no worries about his trying to mislead us. 

Don't get me wrong, I understand the point you are trying to make.  I just think the meaning is getting lost in translation.  It's hard to chalk this up to chaos theory with the mention of the butterfly effect.  All equilibria are known.  Initial conditions are known.  Both have been unchanged with verification by Norbert.  That leaves us with your second mentioned option, it's something you haven't encountered before.

I think instead of saying something has changed, it would be better to say "I'm encountering something new, what the hell is up with this?".  Maybe forward progress with that approach would meet less resistance.

Sorry for the long post....I'm full of turkey and gravy and watching the LSU and Arkansas game.

I'm confused!!! Are you an attorney???

11/26/2011 10:30 AM
tnscout
Posts: 222 (0)
All Star
3 27 1
Prospect
Umm no, why?
11/26/2011 11:46 AM
tnscout
Posts: 222 (0)
All Star
3 27 1
Prospect
Ermackey:

Sorry it took so long to respond.  I've been trying to wrap my head around possibilities.  Even though I subscribe to and enjoy chaos theory, it gives me headaches sometimes lol. I think that's the fun of it most times.  With your mention of Herbert Simon (kudos), I had to do a little research.  I am very familiar with his works except in the AI department.  I'm not much into computers, programming, AI, etc.  I'm more familiar with his works in economics, sociology, and industry.  I truly am starting to see where you are basing your hypothesis from.

1.  I kept thinking of recruiting divisions as non-linear.  Since you are able to recruit 1 division higher, based on your performance and recruiting strategy, they truly are linear.  This leads to plausibility in the idea of upward divergence.  (update based)
2.  The worlds are populated more with SIMs than human coaches these days.  I understand the recruiting priorities changing, I'm just not sure how the AI works in this manner to begin with so I can't even begin to assess that.  I do understand what you're saying though.  (customer and AI based)
3.  A scary thought.  One would be bad enough.
4.  A strong possibility.

Now I'm trying to decide if I think (given that all of this is even factual) whether we're talking about a shift in vectors involving SIM AI recruiting based on a change noted by the update, OR if the equilibria has been unintentionally changed which led to the upward divergence that impacts D1AA and D1A. 

Then, I wonder, could it be a mathematical miscalculation by the AI or an input by human.  Miscalculations(falsely rounded numbers is what I would think) are a mainstay for the credence of mathematical chaotic theory.

I do have a few comparisons to accounting and finance that I am using to better understand the idea of upward divergence in this setting.

DISCLAIMER (lol):  Chaotic theory is fun to think about.  It doesn't suggest I believe this is the case in what Ermackey has experienced, but there are possibilities that exist in which we need/want to think outside the box.  I understand Ermackey's ideas and since I really enjoy talking about this subject, it allows for a fun discussion.  Not everyone subscribes to the idea of chaotic theory, and no, it does not lead to the plausibility of time travel. That was a Hollywood thing. No trolling or hate mail please. 
11/26/2011 12:36 PM
ermackey
Posts: 849 (0)
Hall of Famer
1 202 366 4
Prospect
Posted by tnscout on 11/26/2011 12:36:00 PM (view original):
Ermackey:

Sorry it took so long to respond.  I've been trying to wrap my head around possibilities.  Even though I subscribe to and enjoy chaos theory, it gives me headaches sometimes lol. I think that's the fun of it most times.  With your mention of Herbert Simon (kudos), I had to do a little research.  I am very familiar with his works except in the AI department.  I'm not much into computers, programming, AI, etc.  I'm more familiar with his works in economics, sociology, and industry.  I truly am starting to see where you are basing your hypothesis from.

1.  I kept thinking of recruiting divisions as non-linear.  Since you are able to recruit 1 division higher, based on your performance and recruiting strategy, they truly are linear.  This leads to plausibility in the idea of upward divergence.  (update based)
2.  The worlds are populated more with SIMs than human coaches these days.  I understand the recruiting priorities changing, I'm just not sure how the AI works in this manner to begin with so I can't even begin to assess that.  I do understand what you're saying though.  (customer and AI based)
3.  A scary thought.  One would be bad enough.
4.  A strong possibility.

Now I'm trying to decide if I think (given that all of this is even factual) whether we're talking about a shift in vectors involving SIM AI recruiting based on a change noted by the update, OR if the equilibria has been unintentionally changed which led to the upward divergence that impacts D1AA and D1A. 

Then, I wonder, could it be a mathematical miscalculation by the AI or an input by human.  Miscalculations(falsely rounded numbers is what I would think) are a mainstay for the credence of mathematical chaotic theory.

I do have a few comparisons to accounting and finance that I am using to better understand the idea of upward divergence in this setting.

DISCLAIMER (lol):  Chaotic theory is fun to think about.  It doesn't suggest I believe this is the case in what Ermackey has experienced, but there are possibilities that exist in which we need/want to think outside the box.  I understand Ermackey's ideas and since I really enjoy talking about this subject, it allows for a fun discussion.  Not everyone subscribes to the idea of chaotic theory, and no, it does not lead to the plausibility of time travel. That was a Hollywood thing. No trolling or hate mail please. 
tnscout,
It looks like you and I are on the same page. I hope you can now see why I keep repeating that we need to keep an eye on this. Depending on the code, there is a possibility that the recruiting of 1A and 1AA were affected even if the code was unchanged for those levels. In fact it is likely that the code changed the dynamic. It is just more likely that it the code did not change the equilibria to a significant degree. That is why I am conceeding that he did not change the code, but not surrndering the possibility that a significant change occurred though a shift of the equilibria upwards. This is why I keep asking people to just watch and see if my outlier is replicated. The possibility is enough to keep an eye on even if it is unlikely.

With the new influx of human coaches though, the equilibria will change again and change the dynamic all over again. It is hard to maintain an experimental design when major variables are uncontrolled. But I think we should pay attention anyway. 
11/26/2011 1:50 PM
tnscout
Posts: 222 (0)
All Star
3 27 1
Prospect
I'll tell you this:  I only entered into this thread for two reasons.  The first reason being the reference to chaos theory, a beloved topic of mine.  The second reason being that during this recently ended recruiting season in Camp, I saw something I had never seen before.  I have played this game for 5 years and under multiple monikers (hence my seemingly low number of seasons on this ID).  I had a recruit that had 3 SIM schools recruiting him when I started my attack.  I quickly wiped out 2 of the schools with CVs.  With only 1 SIM school remaining, I threw another 4 or 5 CVs on him which may or may not have been overkill.  I didn't want to take a chance.  The very next cycle, the last SIM school was gone and I had the recruit green.  The following cycle, I logged in to find the recruit yellow, and the school on him was one of the first 2 SIM schools I knocked off with my first round of CVs.  I have never seen a SIM school come back onto a recruit after being knocked off.  

My first thought on this matter was something has changed with the recruiting code in D1A.  Norbert soon verified nothing had changed.  I'm still confused as to what happened.  Being that it had been 3 full cycles since the team had been knocked off, I knew it could not have involved a delayed update or anything of that sort.  I have never even heard of this, much less witnessed it.  This could very well be one of those deals that have always been there, I just hadn't encountered it yet.  It could also have been one of those SIM schools that recruit harder and actually came back onto a recruit.

Back to your point though, yes it is hard to develop reliable and irrefutable evidence without a control group.  Only based on my own situation, I think recruiting is something that is worthy of monitoring to see if these are outliers or if a problem does exist.  I also appreciate those that don't know about or don't subscribe to chaos theory, claiming nothing is wrong.  I'm very open minded and won't belittle anybody's thought process.  I'm one of those "I can appreciate it, but I don't have to understand/agree with it" kind of people.
11/26/2011 10:46 PM
hlbart
Posts: 75 (0)
Hall of Famer
10 1 6 5 291 2
Prospect
" ...  I have never seen a SIM school come back onto a recruit after being knocked off. "

Neither have I. I hope I never do - this would definitely present a new, and troubling, problem in recruiting.
11/26/2011 11:35 PM
quietman
Posts: 1289 (0)
Hall of Famer
140
Prospect
Posted by hlbart on 11/26/2011 11:35:00 PM (view original):
" ...  I have never seen a SIM school come back onto a recruit after being knocked off. "

Neither have I. I hope I never do - this would definitely present a new, and troubling, problem in recruiting.
It's rare but does happen. Bears truth to the "sims never give up" theory. And who wouldn't with unlimited resources. That has changed now I hope.
11/27/2011 8:37 AM
◂ Prev 1...6|7|8|9 Next ▸
Recruiting - Post Update Topic
△Top△Bottom

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2024 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.