All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition
2/16/2012 2:06 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/16/2012 12:27:00 PM (view original):
Quite honestly, no amount of statistical data for one player is going to prove anything along this line.

But, if you agree that batters change their approach and fielders change their approach based on the situation, it's hard not to believe that pitchers wouldn't do the same thing.   Even coaches change their approach.    So, really, it would be arguing that every competitor on that field does something different based on score EXCEPT for the pitcher.    That would strike me as odd.

That's not to say Hunter was better or worse than his stats indicate, stats are what they are, but I find it hard to believe that he, like pretty much every pitcher in history, didn't say "Hit this.  We're up 9-1.  Your hit won't matter."    And I'm more likely to believe it happens more frequently to pitchers on good teams than bad ones. 
First line.

132 innings is less of a gauge than 3440.    Both are less than "no amount of statistical data for one player".

But, again, if you believe batters, fielders and coaches change their approach based on situations, it seems odd that you don't think pitchers would do the same.
2/16/2012 2:15 PM (edited)
I've never said that pitchers don't change their approach depending on the situation.  My argument is that there is nothing special about Hunter's stats.  If it's so obvious that all pitchers adjust based on the situation, then we don't need to make excuses for Hunter's ERA.  His ERA is what it is, and, relative to all the other pitchers that also change their approach depending on the situation, it isn't very good.
2/16/2012 2:24 PM
Posted by smeric on 2/11/2012 9:01:00 PM (view original):
I don't care what anyone says, a HOF without the all-time hits leader is ridiculous.
obviously, instead of "the all-time hits leader", you meant to put "Mort Cooper"
2/16/2012 2:40 PM
Posted by jrd_x on 2/16/2012 2:15:00 PM (view original):
I've never said that pitchers don't change their approach depending on the situation.  My argument is that there is nothing special about Hunter's stats.  If it's so obvious that all pitchers adjust based on the situation, then we don't need to make excuses for Hunter's ERA.  His ERA is what it is, and, relative to all the other pitchers that also change their approach depending on the situation, it isn't very good.
Once "all the other pitchers" average 277 innings and 16 complete games over 10 consecutive seasons, I guess we've got a discussion.   Until then, have a good day.
2/16/2012 2:47 PM
Question is, how many pitchers did that back in the 70s? I don't know the answer. If he's the only one, then yes, it's an impressive feat and he probably deserves HOF inclusion.
2/16/2012 2:49 PM
Jim Palmer threw more innings (3948) with more complete games (211), more shutouts (53), a lower ERA (2.86), and a better ERA+ (126), with the exact same run support (4.4 per start).  No pitching to the score there.
2/16/2012 2:54 PM
OK, the list is now one.   Please list the others from the mid 60s to the mid 70s who did the same. 
2/16/2012 3:00 PM
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/16/2012 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Question is, how many pitchers did that back in the 70s? I don't know the answer. If he's the only one, then yes, it's an impressive feat and he probably deserves HOF inclusion.
My guess is you'll find a few.   The Niekros, the Perrys, Carlton, Sutton, Jenkins, Ryan(came in a little later) all had long enough careers in that era.    But you'll also probably find they all have ERA over 3 and that they're in the HOF.
2/16/2012 3:08 PM
Actually, this plays into what we've both claimed in this thread.

You have to pitch to contact to throw that many innings per season.   One would reason that they'd pick and choose when to do that.
If a lot of pitchers were similar and only a few of them made the HOF from a specific era, there has to be a reason the voters found them worthy over others.
2/16/2012 3:47 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/16/2012 8:39:00 AM (view original):
Damn.  I was just getting ready to post that.

Batters hit to situations.
Fielders play to situations.
Pitchers pitch the same regardless of the situation.

That looks about right, huh?
Yeah, if you're retarded.
2/16/2012 3:49 PM
Posted by Jtpsops on 2/16/2012 9:33:00 AM (view original):
Tec - I'm glad you brought up coaching because I was just going to say that.

Any coach who's worth a salt is going to tell his pitcher to attack the zone and pitch to contact with a 5+ run lead, even if that's not his regular approach. How long does a pitcher last if he walks the bases loaded with a 5-0 lead while trying to nitpick for the strike out? Likely not long. I can't speak for Hunter specifically because I never saw him pitch. But to suggest a guy wouldn't change his approach from trying to keep guys off the basepaths, to trying to get the remaining outs as quickly as possible without giving up free bases when he has a huge lead is ridiculous.

Look at Cliff Lee. He does this all the time, not just with a huge lead - he pitches to contact. What are the results? His OAV is usually approaching average, but his BB/9 and WHIP are incredible. Some starts, he gets absolutely lit up - which is going to happen when you constantly pitch in the strike zone. But by and large, the result is a lot of strikeouts, in-play outs and shutouts.
Did you mean to say, "worth a salt"?
2/16/2012 4:24 PM
Sorry, is that expression to old school for you?
2/16/2012 4:27 PM
It's "worth his salt" and it comes from Roman soldiers who were paid with salt.   At least I think it was Romans. 
2/16/2012 4:32 PM
Well, the innernets kind of agrees with me.   So let me re-phrase.   I've always thought it's "worth his salt because Roman soldiers were paid in salt back in the day.  So soliders were either worth their salt or not.  Meaning they were good or ****** soldiers."
2/16/2012 4:51 PM
Well I'm not Roman or a soldier...so STFU!!!
of 79
All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Throw the Bum Out - Hall of Fame Edition

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

Popular on WhatIfSports site: Baseball Simulation | College Basketball Game | College Football Game | Online Baseball Game | Hockey Simulation | NFL Picks | College Football Picks | Sports Games

© 1999-2014 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.