Posted by moranis on 12/16/2014 8:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/15/2014 7:23:00 PM (view original):
Again, what else can you do?    Cut him loose, draft a QB and hope he isn't RGIII or Jake Locker?    Then find out 3 years later that he is?

well you could turn into Chicago.  Isn't that what they said about Cutler?

I'm not sure who "they" are but do a search of "cutler" in this forum.    You'll find me, and many others, mocking his ability.    So "they" might have been wrong.  I wasn't. 

Wilson was 4th and 7th his first two years in QB rating. He's 14th this year playing behind possibly the worst pass blocking line in the league....they weren't that great last year either. HIs WR's are terrible. He has no TE to speak of. You guys are nuts.

Go back a few years and see where teams that missed on QB in the draft are:

2007
Jamarcus Russell-Raiders:  'nuff said
Brady Quinn-Browns:  announcing
2008
Matt Ryan-Falcons:  Jury's still out
Joe Flacco-Ravens:  In contention every year
2009
Matthew Stafford-Lions:   Ryan V2
Mark Sanchez-Jets:   Hehe
Josh Freeman-Bucs:   Hehe V2
2010
Sam Bradford-Rams:  Incomplete but can't stay on the field
Tim Tebow-Broncos:  Announcing.  Let go to pick up Manning

If you miss on your QB, you watch football in January.  It's just that simple.   Wilson lets you play on.   Again, I'm not a fan.  I think he's overrated and I agree that he's not the guy you want in a shootout or if you're looking at a long field with little time.   But he works in Seattle.   Not paying him is a bad idea because the guy who'd replace him will either be unproven or plain out suck(remember he beat out Matt Flynn). 

Posted by moranis on 12/16/2014 8:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/15/2014 5:47:00 PM (view original):
Wanna name the 11 you'd take before him?

He doesn't turn the ball over and he extends plays with his legs.   That allows the D to not get stuck with a short field and provides his less than stellar corp of receivers to get open.   That's exactly what SEA needs him to do.

I'm not a big fan but I don't think there are 11 QB I'd take over him.

Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers are the obvious(and three of them won't be around that much longer).
I think Luck rounds out the top 5.

Then I think you've got a mixed bag of good/bad.  I'd have no problem putting Wilson in the front, or the back, of this group:  Kap, Eli, Romo, Rothlisberger, Newton, Stafford, Ryan, Rivers, Smith, Dalton, Tannehill, Flacco.    Truth is, he's probably somewhere in the middle.    And, if I had to win a close game, I'd take him over almost all of them.   Because he doesn't turn the ball over.

I think he is near the back of that group.  He is a game manager.  The lack of turnovers is great no doubt, but he doesn't have the arm to make all of the throws, he isn't great in the pocket, he is small, etc.  If I was losing by 6 with under 2 minutes and needed a TD to win, most of that group I'd want over Wilson and the statistics bear that out. 

I want names - which players out of that group are you taking over Wilson for an entire game/entire season?

Assuming the dollars are similar, I'd take Eli, Romo, Ben, Newton, Stafford, Rivers, and Flacco over Wilson for the next few years without giving it much thought (Eli, Ben, and Rivers are getting up there in age so I'm not sure how much longer they will still be effective).  I would have to think awhile about Ryan, Smith, and Tannehill but probably go Ryan over Wilson but Wilson over the other two.  I'd take Wilson over Kap and Dalton.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/16/2014 9:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by moranis on 12/16/2014 8:10:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/15/2014 7:23:00 PM (view original):
Again, what else can you do?    Cut him loose, draft a QB and hope he isn't RGIII or Jake Locker?    Then find out 3 years later that he is?

well you could turn into Chicago.  Isn't that what they said about Cutler?

I'm not sure who "they" are but do a search of "cutler" in this forum.    You'll find me, and many others, mocking his ability.    So "they" might have been wrong.  I wasn't. 

Oh I know, I wasn't saying you personally, but that is the logic Chicago had with Cutler and why they signed him to a big contract.  A contract they clearly regret now.

Posted by AlCheez on 12/16/2014 8:24:00 AM (view original):
Yeah, because that's a quality comparison right there.  Maybe take the next round (or 10) off.

I don't disagree with much of what's been said about Wilson's abilities, but Seattle is sitting in a situation where they've got a team in place they can and have won with.  They have a QB in place they can and have won with.  Their alternatives are either A) immediately blow that up by refusing to pay Wilson and going into the draft for a replacement or B) pay him and hope that that they can continue to keep a good enough team to win with him around him despite his added contract.

Out here in internet land, A is a fun option to talk about, but no GM in the world is going to do it.  And whether Wilson is truly elite or not, NFL QBs who are even average don't exactly grow on trees. 

Option A is exactly what Baltimore did with Dilfer after winning the Superbowl in 2000.  Well not exactly they signed Elvis Grbac to be the starting QB after not signing Dilfer rather than going the draft route.

Posted by moranis on 12/16/2014 10:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by AlCheez on 12/16/2014 8:24:00 AM (view original):
Yeah, because that's a quality comparison right there.  Maybe take the next round (or 10) off.

I don't disagree with much of what's been said about Wilson's abilities, but Seattle is sitting in a situation where they've got a team in place they can and have won with.  They have a QB in place they can and have won with.  Their alternatives are either A) immediately blow that up by refusing to pay Wilson and going into the draft for a replacement or B) pay him and hope that that they can continue to keep a good enough team to win with him around him despite his added contract.

Out here in internet land, A is a fun option to talk about, but no GM in the world is going to do it.  And whether Wilson is truly elite or not, NFL QBs who are even average don't exactly grow on trees. 

Option A is exactly what Baltimore did with Dilfer after winning the Superbowl in 2000.  Well not exactly they signed Elvis Grbac to be the starting QB after not signing Dilfer rather than going the draft route.

That's a little selective.   Pretty sure Tony Banks was the starting QB until incompetence or injury FORCED Baltimore to go with Dilfer.    It's not like the Ravens had an entrenched QB who was leading them to the playoffs season after season.

IIRC, they went 5-6 games without an offensive TD before going with Dilfer.  And, if Ray Lewis is to be believed, Dilfer was told "Just don't **** up."

Posted by moranis on 12/16/2014 10:35:00 AM (view original):

Posted by AlCheez on 12/16/2014 8:24:00 AM (view original):
Yeah, because that's a quality comparison right there.  Maybe take the next round (or 10) off.

I don't disagree with much of what's been said about Wilson's abilities, but Seattle is sitting in a situation where they've got a team in place they can and have won with.  They have a QB in place they can and have won with.  Their alternatives are either A) immediately blow that up by refusing to pay Wilson and going into the draft for a replacement or B) pay him and hope that that they can continue to keep a good enough team to win with him around him despite his added contract.

Out here in internet land, A is a fun option to talk about, but no GM in the world is going to do it.  And whether Wilson is truly elite or not, NFL QBs who are even average don't exactly grow on trees. 

Option A is exactly what Baltimore did with Dilfer after winning the Superbowl in 2000.  Well not exactly they signed Elvis Grbac to be the starting QB after not signing Dilfer rather than going the draft route.

Seriously - now Wilson is Dilfer?

Like I said, take the next several rounds off - you've taken one too many blows to the head.

Posted by moranis on 12/16/2014 10:29:00 AM (view original):
Assuming the dollars are similar, I'd take Eli, Romo, Ben, Newton, Stafford, Rivers, and Flacco over Wilson for the next few years without giving it much thought (Eli, Ben, and Rivers are getting up there in age so I'm not sure how much longer they will still be effective).  I would have to think awhile about Ryan, Smith, and Tannehill but probably go Ryan over Wilson but Wilson over the other two.  I'd take Wilson over Kap and Dalton.

Newton, really? And without thought?  Based on what?  His size and arm that haven't currently transferred to anything better than Wilson is doing statistically since his rookie year?

Stafford's got freaking Megatron to throw the ball to, and the only thing he does better than Wilson is put up raw yardage totals, and based on completion percentage, ypa, etc, that's simply a product of the fact that he throws the ball so much more.  

Put Flacco and Wilson together in your statistical comparison, both for this year and overall since Wilson came into the league and tell me how Flacco is a no-brainer for anyone other than a Ravens homer.

I don't have a problem with any of the rest over Wilson, but they wouldn't all be clear cut.  He's in the upper 3rd of the league, without question.

Posted by moranis on 12/16/2014 10:29:00 AM (view original):
Assuming the dollars are similar, I'd take Eli, Romo, Ben, Newton, Stafford, Rivers, and Flacco over Wilson for the next few years without giving it much thought (Eli, Ben, and Rivers are getting up there in age so I'm not sure how much longer they will still be effective).  I would have to think awhile about Ryan, Smith, and Tannehill but probably go Ryan over Wilson but Wilson over the other two.  I'd take Wilson over Kap and Dalton.

Eli, Newton, and Stafford? Man, pass that **** over here. It has to be good.

I never compared Dilfer to Wilson.  I merely said that Baltimore had a QB in place that can and in fact did just win with and rather than sign him to a bigger longer contract went a different direction.  Something you claim no team would ever do.  Wilson is better than Dilfer (and it isn't all that close), but Wilson will also require a much larger percentage of the cap to keep as well. 

And for the record Dilfer lost his first start and then won 11 straight games (7 in the regular season and 4 in the playoffs).  They had great TE's and RB"s, but terrible receivers and won games because of the defense and running game.  Dilfer is your classic game manager.  Wilson is much more dynamic because of his running, but Seattle and that Baltimore team had very similar philosophies i.e. run the ball, don't turn it over, and let the defense do its magic. 

Golden Tate is a good example in his one season.    Less TD/yard per catch with Stafford as opposed to Wilson.  As AC said, Calvin Johnson and airing it out is the difference between what they're accomplishing.   Well, that and wins.

Posted by moranis on 12/16/2014 11:16:00 AM (view original):
I never compared Dilfer to Wilson.  I merely said that Baltimore had a QB in place that can and in fact did just win with and rather than sign him to a bigger longer contract went a different direction.  Something you claim no team would ever do.  Wilson is better than Dilfer (and it isn't all that close), but Wilson will also require a much larger percentage of the cap to keep as well. 

And for the record Dilfer lost his first start and then won 11 straight games (7 in the regular season and 4 in the playoffs).  They had great TE's and RB"s, but terrible receivers and won games because of the defense and running game.  Dilfer is your classic game manager.  Wilson is much more dynamic because of his running, but Seattle and that Baltimore team had very similar philosophies i.e. run the ball, don't turn it over, and let the defense do its magic. 

I'm sorry that I have to assume you have to have everything completely spelled out for you when I say things to keep you from making silly analogies.  Wilson is finishing up his 3rd season at the helm, all going to end up in the playoffs, at least one with a Super Bowl title.  They drafted him.  Dilfer was a stop gap solution that happened to work out, who had been bad to mediocre at his last stop.  Committing to Trent Dilfer as your long term QB solution was a bad call at any cost.  The debate with Wilson centers around whether he's elite, or just good.  It's not just the running, Wilson is way better at football that Dilfer ever dreamed of being.  

Let me simmer that all down and refine what I originally said for you: No team in Seattle's position is dumping a good QB in hopes of having an elite QB a couple years later.