All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP
10/4/2012 2:12 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:08:00 PM (view original):
I can find fast guys who play good D all day long.  

And hardly "tied" on offense. 
How many guys stole 49 bases this year with a 90% success rate and had an OPS+ higher than the triple crown winner????

10/4/2012 2:12 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 10/4/2012 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Mike has also disqualified the UZR stat, so that won't help your argument with him.  He shouldn't deny that Trout is a much better center fielder than Cabrera is a 3rd baseman, though.

Again, who's most valuable in a vacuum, all things equal? Trout.  But all things aren't equal.  Cabrera has meant more to the Tigers than Trout has to the Angels.  That's all I'm saying - and there are many people who look at this information when deciding who should be the MVP, whether you think it's right or wrong.  And since the MVP award doesn't have a definition, or ANY guidelines, I can't argue with people who do.  Or "******* ******* RETARDED."
This:

"Honestly, this is the problem with statgeeks.   They need everything in a tiny little formula.   They can't fathom the thought that there are other circumstances or outside forces in play.    'THE FORMULA!!!!!  THE FORMULA!!!!!!"
10/4/2012 2:14 PM
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 1:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 1:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Tampa Bay had a better record, too.  Tigers are in the playoffs because of the division they play in.  Congrats to them, but I don't see why that would be an argument for Cabrera over Trout or anyone else.  I think Cabrera is the first triple crown winner to not lead his league in WAR, which is interesting.
Perhaps WAR is flawed?

Perhaps there are ways to add value besides just Batting Average, HR, and RBI?

Without question.

But that doesn't address my question, does it?
I think it does, since your comment implied that if WAR and triple crown aren't aligned that WAR must be flawed.  I'd take Trout in this argument but I expect Miggy will get the award.  It doesn't bother me since he is clearly one of the very best players in the game.  I do think that the "his team made the playoffs" argument is ridiculous when there are three divisions, though.  Tigers had 7th best record in league.  In/out of playoffs is a function of Tigers bein in the "right" division and the Angels and Rays being in the "wrong" divisions.  No one should get extra credit or demerits for that.
Still doesn't address the question.

I'll rephrase:   Maybe WAR is flawed?   Is it the only stat that matters?   Do teams with the best WAR always win?  Isn't the objective to win?
10/4/2012 2:15 PM
Posted by loudawg10 on 10/4/2012 2:08:00 PM (view original):
the point of WAR is to be a tool, not a be all end all statistic to determine a players "value".  

Fun with WAR part 2: TEAM WARS!

Houston 55 wins - team WAR 7.6.  -  a team of "replacement" Houston Astros wins 47-48 games
Chi Cubs 61 wins - team WAR 11. - a team of "replacement" Cubs wins 50 games
Wash Nats 98 wins - team WAR 41 - "replacement" Nats win 57 games
NYY 95 wins - team WAR 48 - "replacement" Yanks win 47 games
SF 94 wins - team WAR 35 - "replacement" Giants win 59 game

so the Yanks win 1 more game than the Giants with "real players", but if each team is stocked with "replacements" the Giants win 12 more games than the Yanks?


Um, that's exactly how it is supposed to work. Replacement level players are calculated to be waiver wire/AAA guys. A team of replacement players would be absolutely horrible.

The discrepancy comes from lack of context. Timing matters in games, it doesn't in WAR calculations (or batting average, rbi, slugging, OBP, runs scored, stolen bases, etc etc etc) 
10/4/2012 2:15 PM
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 2:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 1:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 1:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by trsnoke on 10/4/2012 1:37:00 PM (view original):
Tampa Bay had a better record, too.  Tigers are in the playoffs because of the division they play in.  Congrats to them, but I don't see why that would be an argument for Cabrera over Trout or anyone else.  I think Cabrera is the first triple crown winner to not lead his league in WAR, which is interesting.
Perhaps WAR is flawed?

Perhaps there are ways to add value besides just Batting Average, HR, and RBI?

Without question.

But that doesn't address my question, does it?
I think it does, since your comment implied that if WAR and triple crown aren't aligned that WAR must be flawed.  I'd take Trout in this argument but I expect Miggy will get the award.  It doesn't bother me since he is clearly one of the very best players in the game.  I do think that the "his team made the playoffs" argument is ridiculous when there are three divisions, though.  Tigers had 7th best record in league.  In/out of playoffs is a function of Tigers bein in the "right" division and the Angels and Rays being in the "wrong" divisions.  No one should get extra credit or demerits for that.
There will be some people who vote for Cabrera, with reasoning of "he's more valuable to the Tigers because they're in the playoffs"  who may consider Trout a better baseball player this season.  But because they don't see the definition of MVP as "best player," they won't vote for Trout.  


10/4/2012 2:16 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 10/4/2012 2:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:08:00 PM (view original):
I can find fast guys who play good D all day long.  

And hardly "tied" on offense. 
How many guys stole 49 bases this year with a 90% success rate and had an OPS+ higher than the triple crown winner????

When those are the only two stats I care about, I'll let you know.   As I said, Gardner might be on the Yanks post-season roster with a bad arm.  All he can do is run. 

There's a reason Herb Washington had a very short BL career.   
10/4/2012 2:18 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 10/4/2012 2:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:08:00 PM (view original):
I can find fast guys who play good D all day long.  

And hardly "tied" on offense. 
How many guys stole 49 bases this year with a 90% success rate and had an OPS+ higher than the triple crown winner????

When those are the only two stats I care about, I'll let you know.   As I said, Gardner might be on the Yanks post-season roster with a bad arm.  All he can do is run. 

There's a reason Herb Washington had a very short BL career.   
You don't seem to care about any stats.
10/4/2012 2:19 PM

I listed about 20 of 'em on the last page.    And who "won" the category.   Lots of C on that page.

10/4/2012 2:21 PM
I'm curious what your purpose of making this thread was.  You don't think there's any argument at all about who is MVP, and yet decided to start one.
10/4/2012 2:23 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:19:00 PM (view original):

I listed about 20 of 'em on the last page.    And who "won" the category.   Lots of C on that page.

Interesting that you failed to mention how close Trout was to Cabrera in many of those stats. You also failed to mention how horrible Cabrera was on the bases and how horrible he was at 3B.

Those things matter in real baseball. Maybe you should get off the computer and watch a game once in a while. I know it's probably hard to understand, having never actually played baseball yourself.
10/4/2012 2:25 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 10/4/2012 2:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:19:00 PM (view original):

I listed about 20 of 'em on the last page.    And who "won" the category.   Lots of C on that page.

Interesting that you failed to mention how close Trout was to Cabrera in many of those stats. You also failed to mention how horrible Cabrera was on the bases and how horrible he was at 3B.

Those things matter in real baseball. Maybe you should get off the computer and watch a game once in a while. I know it's probably hard to understand, having never actually played baseball yourself.
You know what really matters?   Playing games when most of the league isn't.    Wanna guess who gets to play this weekend and who doesn't?
10/4/2012 2:27 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 10/4/2012 2:23:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/4/2012 2:19:00 PM (view original):

I listed about 20 of 'em on the last page.    And who "won" the category.   Lots of C on that page.

Interesting that you failed to mention how close Trout was to Cabrera in many of those stats. You also failed to mention how horrible Cabrera was on the bases and how horrible he was at 3B.

Those things matter in real baseball. Maybe you should get off the computer and watch a game once in a while. I know it's probably hard to understand, having never actually played baseball yourself.
You know what really matters?   Playing games when most of the league isn't.    Wanna guess who gets to play this weekend and who doesn't?
Let me guess? The team with the 7th best record in the AL is still playing. We should give the MVP award to Selig. Without his division alignment the Tigers would be home this weekend.
10/4/2012 2:30 PM
Yea, the Tigers might. He's certainly more valuable to the Tigers than he is to the Angels.
10/4/2012 2:33 PM
Or is that impossible...value is always the same to everyone...
10/4/2012 2:40 PM
What is Selig's WAR?    That's really all that matters.
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