All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Ripping off ESPN -> Trout vs Cabrera MVP
10/2/2012 4:12 PM
So you aren't capable of distinguishing between the performances of two players over an entire year?
10/2/2012 4:12 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 10/2/2012 4:01:00 PM (view original):
It's definitely coming down to an "old school / new school" debate when it comes to evaulating stats and value.
Indeed. Time itself will increase the percentage of new school voters who grew up as part of the sabermetrics revolution. It will be interesting to see how awards and Hall of Fame voting change. Even the small shift occurring recently has had an impact, such as the 2009 and 2010 Cy Young voting. And I'd say the hard push by the new school helped get Bert Blyleven and Ron Santo into the Hall, although each had his old school supporters too.
10/2/2012 4:13 PM
Are you incapable of reading an entire post?
10/2/2012 4:14 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/2/2012 4:08:00 PM (view original):
I can't really exclude that when comparing two players who had very good years. 

If WAR is your stat of choice, why is it between Cabrera/Trout?
If RC is your stat of choice, why aren't you touting Cabrera?
ADJ batting wins, Cabrera?

I could go on but I hope you get my point by now.    There are plenty of stats to look at and you can use them to make a case for any number of players.   So it kind of goes back to what I said earlier "Who would I want on my ******* team this year?" or, conversely, "Who would I NOT want to face in a big situation?"    And it comes back to Cabrera.    That's not to say anyone who thinks Trout is MVP is a moron.  They aren't.   But to say "head and shoulders" is moronic.    It's not that easy.
Read this one again.   The entire post.  Don't stop after the first line.

And, if you're still having problems, read the other posts in this thread.   I've been pretty clear.
10/2/2012 4:18 PM
Posted by 1899_spiders on 10/2/2012 4:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 10/2/2012 4:01:00 PM (view original):
It's definitely coming down to an "old school / new school" debate when it comes to evaulating stats and value.
Indeed. Time itself will increase the percentage of new school voters who grew up as part of the sabermetrics revolution. It will be interesting to see how awards and Hall of Fame voting change. Even the small shift occurring recently has had an impact, such as the 2009 and 2010 Cy Young voting. And I'd say the hard push by the new school helped get Bert Blyleven and Ron Santo into the Hall, although each had his old school supporters too.
Not really arguing the rest, but Santo?   You really think the "new school" influenced the committee that voted him in?  Have you seen the membership?
10/2/2012 4:19 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/2/2012 4:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/2/2012 4:08:00 PM (view original):
I can't really exclude that when comparing two players who had very good years. 

If WAR is your stat of choice, why is it between Cabrera/Trout?
If RC is your stat of choice, why aren't you touting Cabrera?
ADJ batting wins, Cabrera?

I could go on but I hope you get my point by now.    There are plenty of stats to look at and you can use them to make a case for any number of players.   So it kind of goes back to what I said earlier "Who would I want on my ******* team this year?" or, conversely, "Who would I NOT want to face in a big situation?"    And it comes back to Cabrera.    That's not to say anyone who thinks Trout is MVP is a moron.  They aren't.   But to say "head and shoulders" is moronic.    It's not that easy.
Read this one again.   The entire post.  Don't stop after the first line.

And, if you're still having problems, read the other posts in this thread.   I've been pretty clear.
I get that you'd vote for Cabrera. But I want you to be explicit. You think Cabrera had a better year than Trout? 
10/2/2012 4:22 PM
As I've said, several times, both had very good years.  If one was "head and shoulders" better, post-season appearance wouldn't play a factor.   Neither was that much better than the other.     Cabrera created more runs(new school).   Does that mean Trout was better?  I don't think so.    He had a higher batting average, more homers and more RBI(old school).   Does that make Trout better?   I don't think so.
10/2/2012 4:23 PM
Posted by AlCheez on 10/2/2012 4:18:00 PM (view original):
Posted by 1899_spiders on 10/2/2012 4:12:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 10/2/2012 4:01:00 PM (view original):
It's definitely coming down to an "old school / new school" debate when it comes to evaulating stats and value.
Indeed. Time itself will increase the percentage of new school voters who grew up as part of the sabermetrics revolution. It will be interesting to see how awards and Hall of Fame voting change. Even the small shift occurring recently has had an impact, such as the 2009 and 2010 Cy Young voting. And I'd say the hard push by the new school helped get Bert Blyleven and Ron Santo into the Hall, although each had his old school supporters too.
Not really arguing the rest, but Santo?   You really think the "new school" influenced the committee that voted him in?  Have you seen the membership?
I suppose it was all the time I had seen new schoolers/saber-heads vehemently back Santo, and rip the VC every time they denied Santo. But perhaps it was the changing of the committee that had the biggest impact.
10/2/2012 4:26 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/2/2012 4:22:00 PM (view original):
As I've said, several times, both had very good years.  If one was "head and shoulders" better, post-season appearance wouldn't play a factor.   Neither was that much better than the other.     Cabrera created more runs(new school).   Does that mean Trout was better?  I don't think so.    He had a higher batting average, more homers and more RBI(old school).   Does that make Trout better?   I don't think so.
Created runs? According to Fangraphs Batting Runs, Trout has been worth 57.4 and Cabrera has been worth 55.3. That's a very small difference (less than half a win), but then you get to defense and base running and the argument for Cabrera kind of falls apart. 
10/2/2012 4:33 PM
10/2/2012 4:35 PM
Fangraphs Batting Runs are based off wRAA, rather than the Palmer/Gillette stat. And Cabrera leads Trout in wRAA, 56.7 to 54.8. But he plays in a park much more favorable to hitters, thus switching the edge to Trout.
10/2/2012 4:35 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/2/2012 4:33:00 PM (view original):
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/RC_top_ten.shtml  138-136

Better is better, no?
Sure, just like Trout is significantly better in the field and on the bases.

They are essentially tied with the bat.

Those other things matter.

It's an easy decision.
10/2/2012 4:42 PM
Yeah, those other things do matter.  Like who was on a team that gets to keep playing when the regular season is done.    Which, if I understand the game correctly, is the objective of most teams. 
10/2/2012 4:44 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/2/2012 4:42:00 PM (view original):
Yeah, those other things do matter.  Like who was on a team that gets to keep playing when the regular season is done.    Which, if I understand the game correctly, is the objective of most teams. 
Sure that makes sense. Trout's high ERA this year really hurt the Angels chances of making the playoffs.

You're grasping. The Angels were better than the Tigers this year.
10/2/2012 4:45 PM
Will the Angels be playing next weekend?     The Tigers will.   Does that sound "better" to you?
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