All Forums > General Discussion > Non-Sports > THE WAR ON CHRISTMAS!!!!!
12/19/2012 1:06 PM (edited)
Posted by bistiza on 12/19/2012 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Atheism actually DOES fit a number of those traits.

It certainly makes a statement regarding belief in supernatural beings or gods (namely, that they don't exist).

It has a distinction between sacred and profane objects (namely, anything of other religions is profane).

It makes a statement on moral codes sanctioned by the gods (namely, that they do not exist because the gods do not exist).

It makes a statement on prayer and other forms of communication with gods (namely that they are unnecessary because the gods do not exist).

It offers a world view and an overall purpose and how people fit into it (namely, there is no god, so there is no point in including one into a worldview or how people fit into it).

It offers the opportunity for atheists to have "a more or less total organization of one's life" based upon the worldview that there is no god.

It is certainly a social group which is bound together by the belief that there is no god.

All of this ties to the central tenet belief that there is no god or higher power, and all of it fits with exactly what you've stated there. Now you'll proceed to argue that what I've said isn't true to set us off on another tangent, but the proof is right there in YOUR definition. Atheism fits most of what YOU have defined as religion.



I'll number them for easy reference.

1. Atheism is not a belief in a supernatural being. That's all the first trait is-- "Belief in supernatural beings (gods)." You can't reword the traits to try to make atheism fit.
2. Nothing is sacred in atheism. Nothing is profane. There is no distinction.
3. SKIPPED
4. Atheism does not contain a moral code. Again, you can't reword the trait.
5. SKIPPED
6. There is no prayer in atheism. Again, you can't reword the trait.
7. & 8. What exactly does atheism say about our place in the world? Nothing. It only says that there is no god.
9. "The above" are the traits used to define religion. If atheism doesn't fit those traits (it doesn't unless you completely reword the traits) then no one is bound together by those traits.
12/19/2012 1:18 PM
Atheism is not a belief in a supernatural being.

Right. But it DOES make a statement about those beliefs, which is effectively the same thing.
Nothing is sacred in atheism. Nothing is profane. There is no distinction.

If nothing is profane, then atheists have no business whatsoever complaining when religious symbols and artifacts are displayed, no matter where that happens. They should never be offended by anything because of their beliefs, including those displays or any other religiously oriented material that does not line up with their beliefs.

Obviously that isn't the case, which totally blows your idea that "nothing is profane" out of the water.
Atheism does not contain a moral code. Again, you can't reword the trait.

I didn't "reword" anything.

Re-read what I said. Atheism states that no moral code is based upon god since god doesn't exist. That's a statement about a moral code. You can't say such a statement doesn't exist, which means it addresses the concept.
There is no prayer in atheism. Again, you can't reword the trait.

And again, I didn't "reword" anything.

Atheism states prayer is not necessary because there is no god. That's a statement about prayer. You can't say such a statement doesn't exist, which means it addresses the concept.
What exactly does atheism say about our place in the world? Nothing. It only says that there is no god.

Exactly. It says there is no god. You answered your own question. That fundamental belief is, in and of itself, a statement about a great many things.

Atheism clearly binds its believers together under the central tenet that there is no god. If it didn't, the entire concept of atheism wouldn't even exist. There would be no collective group called "atheists".

Let's cut to the chase right here: That's the concept you don't seem to get - that the single central tenet of atheism has far reaching implications and isn't just a simple statement as you seem to suggest. When you make a statement like "there is no god", it says a whole lot more than just those four words. It makes implications about a vast array of things that are normally associated with a deity which you are now saying does not exist. It isn't a stand alone statement, no matter how much you think it is or want it to be.
12/19/2012 1:22 PM
Participating in a discussion with bistiza is like taking a wrong turn in your car and ending up in Retardville.

Disengage.  Immediately.  Or you will be assimilated.
12/19/2012 1:30 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/19/2012 11:54:00 AM (view original):
Atheism is not a religion.

It is utterly retarded to say, let alone INSIST, that it is.
What if you don't believe in a higher power and do think that is a religion?   What if you and a group of friends gather at 10 AM on every Sunday and discuss why there is no god? 
12/19/2012 1:34 PM

Right. But it DOES make a statement about those beliefs, which is effectively the same thing.

Not believing in god is not the same as believing in god. Even if you reword it to "making a statement about their non-belief in god." The trait asks if a belief in god exists. The answer to that for atheists is No. So atheists don't fit in the first trait.

You are insane.

If nothing is profane, then atheists have no business whatsoever complaining when religious symbols and artifacts are displayed, no matter where that happens. 

People (not just atheists) complain about government endorsement of religion because it's unconstitutional, not because it's profane. *******. Atheism does not classify ANYTHING as either sacred or profane.


Atheism states that no moral code is based upon god since god doesn't exist. That's a statement about a moral code. You can't say such a statement doesn't exist, which means it addresses the concept.
What? There is no moral code in atheism. The trait is not, does the religion make a statement about moral code? The trait is - does a moral code exist. It doesn't.

Here is the exact trait: "A moral code believed to be sanctioned by the gods" For atheism, the answer is no, there is no moral code.

You ************* moron.

Atheism states prayer is not necessary because there is no god. That's a statement about prayer.

1. No it doesn't. Atheism ONLY states that there is no god.
2. Statement about prayer is not the trait, ********. The trait asks if prayer exists. Which it doesn't.

See, here is the trait: "
Prayer and other forms of communication with gods."

12/19/2012 1:36 PM
Atheism is more than there is no god.

It is that everything came from a non-divine source. We are all part of a world that has no god. All of your actions have no after death results, so make it count here.

We also believe in spreading our philosophy.

And also remember that the definition of what is a religion was written by people with a God. They try not to single out their god, but they do appear prejudiced for a god.
12/19/2012 1:36 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 12/19/2012 1:22:00 PM (view original):
Participating in a discussion with bistiza is like taking a wrong turn in your car and ending up in Retardville.

Disengage.  Immediately.  Or you will be assimilated.
Seriously. This is unbelievable. I'm done with him.
12/19/2012 1:45 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 12/17/2012 1:05:00 PM (view original):
We're obviously talking past each other and this is pointless.

Just having an opinion about the existence or non-existence of god does not qualify as belonging to a religion. I think religion is more than that. And I think if you were being honest you'd admit the same.

Now, like everyone else, I'm done with you.
Yeah, sure you were.
12/19/2012 1:48 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/19/2012 1:30:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/19/2012 11:54:00 AM (view original):
Atheism is not a religion.

It is utterly retarded to say, let alone INSIST, that it is.
What if you don't believe in a higher power and do think that is a religion?   What if you and a group of friends gather at 10 AM on every Sunday and discuss why there is no god? 

Here's the guidelines that the IRS uses to determine if a religious organization qualifies for tax exempt status:

Church.

These attributes of a church have been developed by the IRS and

by court decisions. They include: distinct legal existence; recognized

creed and form of worship; definite and distinct ecclesiastical

government; formal code of doctrine and discipline; distinct

religious history; membership not associated with any other church

or denomination; organization of ordained ministers; ordained

ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study;

literature of its own; established places of worship; regular congregations;

regular religious services; Sunday schools for the religious

instruction of the young; schools for the preparation of its ministers.

The IRS generally uses a combination of these characteristics,

together with other facts and circumstances, to determine whether

an organization is considered a church for federal tax purposes.

Certain characteristics are generally attributed to churches.
12/19/2012 1:52 PM
A couple of interesting points which help to define a church/religion:

- organization of ordained ministers
- ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study
- Sunday schools for the instruction of the young
- schools for the preparation of it's ministers

Does atheism have ministers?  
12/19/2012 1:55 PM
Beats me.   No reason they couldn't.    If they gathered every Sunday at 10 to talk about no god, someone would likely be running the show.

I think this one might be the stopper:  recognized creed and form of worship
12/19/2012 1:56 PM
I imagine, if a band of rogue athiests demanded to be recognized as a religion, that our government would grant their wishes.
12/19/2012 2:06 PM
Wow, this is what we've stooped to.... quoting the IRS definitions.

Sad.
12/19/2012 2:12 PM
Participating in a discussion with bistiza is like taking a wrong turn in your car and ending up in Retardville. Disengage.  Immediately.  Or you will be assimilated.

When someone who has tried to debate you is so rattled by their past failures in that regard that they enter other threads with no other purpose than to insult you, that is the ultimate compliment when it comes to debating on internet message boards.

It also speaks volumes about their lack of skills in debate when they go straight for the insults, when if their claims of the invalidity of the opposing argument were true, anyone with even marginal debate skills would surely have an easy time destroying such a weak argument, which would be a much greater way of showing how foolish it was in the first place.

In short: If someone's argument really is incredibly weak, there is no need to insult them - you just defeat them easily and certainly and move on. When the insults begin flying, the person hurling them is almost always trying to cover for a lack of debate skills or a lack of validity to their own argument or both.
Not believing in god is not the same as believing in god.

Thank you, captain obvious.

Both statements are ABOUT god, however, and that means they are religious in nature.
The trait asks if a belief in god exists. The answer to that for atheists is No. So atheists don't fit in the first trait.

A belief ABOUT god exists for atheists, which is how the trait should be worded. Belief in a god is not necessary for religion, as clearly demonstrated by several world religions.
You are insane.

Read what I said to tecwrg above about the person who hurls insults.
People (not just atheists) complain about government endorsement of religion because it's unconstitutional, not because it's profane.

Funny then that most of those people consider themselves atheists, and most groups who band together to attack religion are also considered atheist groups.
Atheism does not classify ANYTHING as either sacred or profane.

Then once again, they should have no problem with religious symbols and the like on government property. Forget the BS about "unconstitutional" the atheists spew all the time just so they can try to stumble for any leg to stand on to defend their beliefs - the real reason they want religious symbols removed is because they consider them all profane. They hate all religious symbols and find them offensive, which is effective the same as profane.
No it doesn't. Atheism ONLY states that there is no god.

If you believe there is no god, what does that say about what you think of prayer? It certainly says something. If you can't figure that out, no one can help you as you do not get logical progression at all.
12/19/2012 2:19 PM
Posted by toddcommish on 12/19/2012 2:06:00 PM (view original):
Wow, this is what we've stooped to.... quoting the IRS definitions.

Sad.
I quoted the IRS definitions, not to provide THE DEFINITIVE definition of religion, but to point out other common characteristics of "religion" that had not been previously mentioned in this discussion.
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