All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > 27 SPD, 22 BH, 1 PER Center Goes 2-3 From Deep
10/8/2012 10:48 PM (edited)
Steph Curry at Davidson is another guy who took a huge volume of threes and created most of that as his team's primary ballhandler.

Also: Goudelock at College of Charleston. Lillard at Weber St.

Basically any truly high volume efficient three point shooter has to have speed and handles. The Matt Roths of the world will shoot a higher percentage as supporting players, but could never sustain a good percentage at a high distro.
10/8/2012 11:02 PM
Posted by kmasonbx on 10/8/2012 10:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 10/7/2012 6:33:00 PM (view original):
BH and Spd should be irrelevant to per?

Yes, there are great spot-up 3-pt shooters.  There are guys who are amazing coming off picks.  But there are guys who also get amazing looks because of the way they handle the ball.

Imagine if Derrick Rose was a good shooter.  He happens to not be, but what if he was?  Are you telling me that his ability to create his own shot wouldn't allow him to get more open looks?

I can't imagine that's a widely-held opinion.  
Give me a few examples of great 3 point shooters who create a large % of the 3s off the dribble?
I think mrg answered as well as I could.  Man, I loved watching Andrew Goudelock at CofC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1smyOfRXIxM

Quincy Douby when he was at Rutgers is another.

But that still misses the point.  You're assuming that the majority of great 3-pt shooters are catch-and-shoot players BECAUSE they are catch-and-shoot players.  I think it's more likely that's the case because there are very few players in real life who are elite shooters AND elite ball handlers.  
10/8/2012 11:11 PM
Curry was actually far more efficient as a sophomore when he was the SG and the team's PG led the nation in assists (43.9% as a soph vs. 38.7% as a Junior). I'll give you Ferdette, Nash and Lillard. 

But there are tons more high volume efficient 3 point shooters who were catch and shoot guys, JJ Reddick, Doron Lamb, even guys who you would consider guys with good handles even in college took most of their 3s off the catch, Kevin Durant and Eric Gordon for example. 

Guys like Curry and Fredette who can shoot off the dribble aren't good 3 point shooters because of their ball handling, they shoot well off the dribble because they are such good shooters. But they are both better shooters when they catch and shoot without a dribble. Nobody shoots better off the dribble, all having a great handle does is allow you to get more shots off. 
10/8/2012 11:30 PM
Chris Lofton was one of the best three-point shooters I've seen. He started out as purely catch and shoot as a freshman and shot 46.5% (13.2 PPG). As a sophomore, he became the team's primary scorer, and throughout his sophomore and junior year, he did a lot of work on his ball-handling to get himself open more often. He ended up actually being pretty effective off the drive for a three-point specialist (there's a picture online of him driving into the lane and getting kicked in the face by Rajon Rondo--he made the shot anyways), but he was never a primary ballhandler. He ended up shooting 43.7% his sophomore year (17.2 PPG), 41.9% his junior year (20.8 PPG), and 38.4% his senior year (15.5 PPG). 

So his shooting stats obviously went down, but that's probably due to a higher volume of shots than to having to work more off the dribble. Well, that and that CJ Watson was his point guard his freshman and sophomore year, and Ramar Smith ran the point his junior year. Those both contribute a lot. Based solely on subjective memory, his junior season was by far his best. The senior season numbers probably should be thrown out, since he played while undergoing chemo for testicular cancer. 
10/9/2012 10:27 AM
Yikes, Never knew that about Lofton, the cancer thing. That's crazy to play through that, respect to him. 
10/9/2012 10:42 AM
I know, and he didn't tell anyone until after the season either. Tennessee fans were wondering WTF was wrong with him all season, and then after it was over, it came out what he'd been playing through, and everybody thought "oh. Yeah, that would explain it. And now I feel terrible for criticizing." Won 30 games that season too. If Lofton had been healthy, I expect he'd have passed Reddick's three-point record and Tennessee would've probably managed a 1 seed. But he sure did earn more respect than anyone should ever have to playing through that. 
10/9/2012 1:01 PM
I don't know if you remember Shawn Respert from Michigan State (another deadly shooter) but he ended up having to retire at like 24 because of a heart condition and didn't tell anybody about it until years later. People just assumed he faded into obscurity because he couldn't cut it in the NBA, but it's hard when heart doesn't work right. I respect guys who don't bemoan their illnesses, and don't use it as an excuse. 
10/9/2012 1:37 PM
Posted by kmasonbx on 10/9/2012 1:01:00 PM (view original):
I don't know if you remember Shawn Respert from Michigan State (another deadly shooter) but he ended up having to retire at like 24 because of a heart condition and didn't tell anybody about it until years later. People just assumed he faded into obscurity because he couldn't cut it in the NBA, but it's hard when heart doesn't work right. I respect guys who don't bemoan their illnesses, and don't use it as an excuse. 
Shawn Respert had stomach cancer, not a heart problem.
10/9/2012 2:03 PM
Posted by tarvolon on 10/8/2012 11:30:00 PM (view original):
Chris Lofton was one of the best three-point shooters I've seen. He started out as purely catch and shoot as a freshman and shot 46.5% (13.2 PPG). As a sophomore, he became the team's primary scorer, and throughout his sophomore and junior year, he did a lot of work on his ball-handling to get himself open more often. He ended up actually being pretty effective off the drive for a three-point specialist (there's a picture online of him driving into the lane and getting kicked in the face by Rajon Rondo--he made the shot anyways), but he was never a primary ballhandler. He ended up shooting 43.7% his sophomore year (17.2 PPG), 41.9% his junior year (20.8 PPG), and 38.4% his senior year (15.5 PPG). 

So his shooting stats obviously went down, but that's probably due to a higher volume of shots than to having to work more off the dribble. Well, that and that CJ Watson was his point guard his freshman and sophomore year, and Ramar Smith ran the point his junior year. Those both contribute a lot. Based solely on subjective memory, his junior season was by far his best. The senior season numbers probably should be thrown out, since he played while undergoing chemo for testicular cancer. 
I was a big Chris Lofton fan, and you just knew that something wasn't right that senior season. He still had a pretty solid year, just not what he did the year before. Once the news came out it all made sense, and it makes you respect a guy like that a lot.

He's had a lot of success overseas, including a game in which he shot 17-22 (yes, 17-22) from three and had 61 points.
10/9/2012 8:01 PM
Posted by dcy0827 on 10/9/2012 1:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by kmasonbx on 10/9/2012 1:01:00 PM (view original):
I don't know if you remember Shawn Respert from Michigan State (another deadly shooter) but he ended up having to retire at like 24 because of a heart condition and didn't tell anybody about it until years later. People just assumed he faded into obscurity because he couldn't cut it in the NBA, but it's hard when heart doesn't work right. I respect guys who don't bemoan their illnesses, and don't use it as an excuse. 
Shawn Respert had stomach cancer, not a heart problem.
There ya go, something in the middle of his body that nobody knew about. Should have googled first, but I'm lazy.
11/8/2012 5:56 PM (edited)
Posted by tarvolon on 10/8/2012 9:43:00 AM (view original):
I have a very small sample, because I'm only in my third season, but I do have a couple players whose data might be worthwhile. Obviously, these ratings are as of now. Guard C is younger and therefore probably has more discrepancy between what he is now and what he was before. 

Guard A: 58 SPD, 46 BH, 97 PER. 47.0% as a sophomore, 47.6% as a junior, 50% through three games as a senior
Guard B: 47 SPD, 54 BH, 83 PER. 44.8% as a sophomore, 47.0% as a junior, 41.6% through three games as a senior
Guard C: 81 SPD, 65 BH, 72 PER. 36.3% as a sophomore, 46.2% through three games as a junior. 

If I remember, I'll update at the end of the year. 
Update!. A finished with those same BH and PER ratings but 59 SPD. B finished with the same SPD and BH ratings, but 84 PER. C finished with 83 SPD, 82 PER, 72 BH. 

Three-point percentages. . . 

A: 47.0% as a sophomore, 47.6% as a junior, 49.5% as a senior. 
B: 44.8% as a sophomore, 47.0% as a junior, 39.8% as a senior. 
C: 36.3% as a sophomore, 38.9% as a junior. 

Confounding variables: 

*B and C were starters with distros of 4 (on a 0-6 scale). A was a sub with a distro of 6. 
*A and B were set at +2, A was alternated between 0 and -1 depending on the situation. 
*A played exclusively SG. B started at SG but backed up the point. C played exclusively PG. 
(note: A and B were exclusively SG last year, with B starting. This year, I had my backup PG graduate, so B started backing up the point)

Conclusions:

1. Playing the point guard KILLS your three-point percentage, regardless of your other abilities.

2. It's hard to tell whether BH or SPD make a big difference to three-point shooting, because my guy with strong BH and SPD was playing point guard. 
11/8/2012 6:16 PM
Posted by kmasonbx on 10/8/2012 10:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by isack24 on 10/7/2012 6:33:00 PM (view original):
BH and Spd should be irrelevant to per?

Yes, there are great spot-up 3-pt shooters.  There are guys who are amazing coming off picks.  But there are guys who also get amazing looks because of the way they handle the ball.

Imagine if Derrick Rose was a good shooter.  He happens to not be, but what if he was?  Are you telling me that his ability to create his own shot wouldn't allow him to get more open looks?

I can't imagine that's a widely-held opinion.  
Give me a few examples of great 3 point shooters who create a large % of the 3s off the dribble?
jodie meeks from kentucky basically did everything himself his junior year, billyG's 2nd year. he put up 54 at Tennessee, that was his biggest performance, but he was wicked fast and created a ton of his own looks off the dribble and just by using his speed to get open for the pass. the rest of his team mostly sucked, except  for patterson, so he didnt get much help.
11/8/2012 6:26 PM
I move that all posts mentioning Jodie Meeks be deleted. 
11/8/2012 10:59 PM
Some data from real life: At least in the NBA, shooters shoot a materially lower %age on 3s off the dribble compared to spot ups. This is according to Synergy Sports, which tracks play by play data across the league for every player in every game.
11/8/2012 11:15 PM
Which is to be expected, really. 

Looks like HD is consistent with real life in that regard, if you assume that guys shoot off the dribble more playing PG than they do at SG. 
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