? I think it is against the spirit of the rules to swoop in on a dominant D3's interested recruits, the theory being if he is interested in these players, they must be good so I don't have to spend the money to scout them. Not against the rules, but should be addressed if it becomes a growing problem.

I don't like the idea of someone doing this (not scouting and assuming recruits must be good because a dominant lower program wants them), but it's not against the rules and is simply another (albeit dubious and annoying) strategy to recruit.

Again, it's something I don't like people doing, but making this against the rules would not only be difficult to enforce, but would completely change how battles are viewed and may end up with every other person who loses a battle claiming something went on against the rules.

Sure, people can call whoever this is names and say how terrible it is, but there is nothing actually wrong with it.

As for using FSS, there is no rule (nor should there be) that anyone has to use FSS. Anyone has the ability to attempt to recruit any player who hasn't already signed, for whatever reason they want to recruit that player - including if they only want that player because it appears another coach wants him too. That is their choice.

I don't like it, and obviously many others don't as well, but that's no reason to say it should be against the rules, as such a rule would severely limit other aspects of recruiting in a way that wouldn't be good for the game at all.

Posted by bistiza on 10/10/2012 12:13:00 PM (view original):

? I think it is against the spirit of the rules to swoop in on a dominant D3's interested recruits, the theory being if he is interested in these players, they must be good so I don't have to spend the money to scout them. Not against the rules, but should be addressed if it becomes a growing problem.

I don't like the idea of someone doing this (not scouting and assuming recruits must be good because a dominant lower program wants them), but it's not against the rules and is simply another (albeit dubious and annoying) strategy to recruit.

Again, it's something I don't like people doing, but making this against the rules would not only be difficult to enforce, but would completely change how battles are viewed and may end up with every other person who loses a battle claiming something went on against the rules.

Sure, people can call whoever this is names and say how terrible it is, but there is nothing actually wrong with it.

As for using FSS, there is no rule (nor should there be) that anyone has to use FSS. Anyone has the ability to attempt to recruit any player who hasn't already signed, for whatever reason they want to recruit that player - including if they only want that player because it appears another coach wants him too. That is their choice.

I don't like it, and obviously many others don't as well, but that's no reason to say it should be against the rules, as such a rule would severely limit other aspects of recruiting in a way that wouldn't be good for the game at all.

I don't find myself agreeing with Bistiza all that often, but I think this post is right on the money.

Posted by ryrun on 10/9/2012 10:53:00 AM (view original):
Once you said it was only his second season I wondered if it was a current D3 coach who created an alias to knock you down.

Have you knocked the same team out of the NT consecutive seasons recently?  Or a few seasons back?  That's where I'd be looking, cause that's just strange.

This is one of the first things I thought as well. This would be unethical, IMHO, and if it is in fact the case I'd hope the powers that be would step in.

interesting points on the N+1 thing. i was recently jumped by a coach on 2 of my recruits - when i had about N+5, maybe a little less, considering me. i have an A prestige, and he had less prestige, less money, AND a distance advantage - plus, hes a normal coach, and usually you have to assume a highly successful coach is beating you out on efficiency, too. i was a little surprised anyone would go against those odds, but figured it was because he saw extra recruits. so i was curious how other people took it, especially after the comment made in this thread,

the way i look at it, and always have, it its smart to "reserve" backups. its damn cheap - 110 dollars in most cases (more for low prestige, so i actually disagree with what was said earlier - low prestige schools shotgunning costs more, high prestige shotgunning is insignificant). ive actually recommended the strategy to about 50 coaches, so i wonder if i led them astray. especially early on - its not clear who is best, till you toss a couple SVs around. i like to have a guy considering me BEFORE spending the relative big (350 or 450 total, compared to 100) bucks finding out if hes good. i often go for 2 players for every 1 i want in that first cycle - in this case, with 6 openings, i had maybe 11 considering me, at a grand cost of 550 dollars. sure, i had another grand in SVs on players i didn't want - but all in all, with a 35k budget, thats less than 5% of my money and basically totally insignificant. and that way, if theres a guy i want to scout, i dont throw the SVs on only to have him consider another coach alone in that first cycle - which makes it really hard to get back on him, people in d2/d3 mostly act like, once a name is on a player, its over (not everyone, but as a whole, d2/d3 coaches are very battle-adverse, at least next to d1).

i do totally agree with the mentality, the coach might be willing to let one of those guys go. i use that mentality all the time when i have low d1 schools and theres a big boy with 6 guys i would love to have and 5 spots. the trick is guessing who he doesn't want. actually i rarely have low d1 schools so the most often time i use that strategy is d2... looking up at d1 schools who have more recruits, and trying to guess if the one i want is one of the ones i don't. or maybe ill get lucky and they are impartial, and let me slide. ive never really done it on equal footing, where i could actually win a battle (that is what makes these posts you guys made so interesting to me - i never thought about it - i pretty much am never in the position where another coach has 5 recruits and im happy to take any of them, when hes in my division - although i can definitely see how another coach could feel that way towards my recruits. i just never really thought about it on an equal footing sort of way). i suppose in that case, i see the logic behind it. however, i would definitely employ a "probe and see" or a "make my point now" type approach, either very softly attacking the recruit and seeing how they handle it, or knocking the other guy off in the first cycle, to immediately find out if this is a guy he is willing to really duke it out for.

interesting viewpoints though, appreciate the insights. ill definitely have to re-think my own strategy, i never thought about it from this perspective before. i still think there is a lot of value in grabbing a couple extra guys early, to buy yourself some time to identify the best and shed the worst, and actually this season when i was jumped, i had already shed most of the worst. i basically assume if people battle, its after they spent a few cycles trying other options, and by then, im down to my # of scholarships, maybe 1 backup. but i never thought of ONE backup as making me look weaker, i thought maybe 5 did, sure, but 1 is just so cheap... but now ill have to rethink that too. thanks

Billy - The way I approach it from the low D1 perspective is that I certainly don't go in assuming he's heavily invested in all of them.  But it does improve the chances that he has options and might be more willing to go in another direction if I go hard at 1 I like right away.  If a...Virginia, for example, has 4 openings and only 2 players considering, the chances of him having a lot of $ to spend in a war is greater, however small the amount, than someone who has 4 openings and 8 players considering.  Any little advantage (for lack of a better word) helps in low D1.  It's by no means an exact science.  Just trying to make dog poop taste slightly less like dog poop.

The other coach has not been active in over 40 seasons and he just shows up to put money on Florida Atlantic recruits. Can WIS tell you if this guy has more user names? Seems like you are obviously targeted and  WIS would want to protect the integrity of the game.

Just my two cents and am a bit shocked by the responses.  I have also already heard and don't need to hear the same canned bs responses, but how about moving up to DIV II?  Your prestige is what and you are complaining?  Do you not realize that every season you "poach" someone from another team that would like to have that player.  You just can't have it both ways.  If you want to stick at DIV III A+ so you can dominate everyone below you, don't ***** and whine if someone does the exact same thing to you.  Especially if like the professor mentioned, they came up with a strategy that was so good it never even entered your mind?

  Nothing personal against you, more surprised by the responses.  I don't see how the logic of "there not yours until they're signed" changes when we're dealing with more recruits.  I think its kind of bush league to call a guy out on here with the obvious intent of putting him in a negative light.  Every season I have played, I have actually had multiple schools in Divisions above me take multiple players off my list, some considering me and some not.  If you're gonna go for players that a higher division might find attractive, there is really no one but yourself to blame.  Again, not speaking of the specific case (agree with others it may be personal) but for recruiting as a whole. 
 

    

billyg, if you're getting all those considering for $110, I have to assume you're promising EVERYBODY a start.  Doesn't that come back to haunt you later?  Sure you can inform of redshirt and then inform of non-redshirt, but it seems like at the very least by doing that you're costing yourself the possibility of ever redshirting anybody.

Posted by tbird9423 on 10/10/2012 11:04:00 PM (view original):
Just my two cents and am a bit shocked by the responses.  I have also already heard and don't need to hear the same canned bs responses, but how about moving up to DIV II?  Your prestige is what and you are complaining?  Do you not realize that every season you "poach" someone from another team that would like to have that player.  You just can't have it both ways.  If you want to stick at DIV III A+ so you can dominate everyone below you, don't ***** and whine if someone does the exact same thing to you.  Especially if like the professor mentioned, they came up with a strategy that was so good it never even entered your mind?

  Nothing personal against you, more surprised by the responses.  I don't see how the logic of "there not yours until they're signed" changes when we're dealing with more recruits.  I think its kind of bush league to call a guy out on here with the obvious intent of putting him in a negative light.  Every season I have played, I have actually had multiple schools in Divisions above me take multiple players off my list, some considering me and some not.  If you're gonna go for players that a higher division might find attractive, there is really no one but yourself to blame.  Again, not speaking of the specific case (agree with others it may be personal) but for recruiting as a whole. 
 

    

I agree rather hypocritical. They poach Div 2 players to Dominate Div 3 then whine when a Div 2 coach takes them from them.  And I agree move to Div 2 and try taking  3  or 4 Div 1 players and recruit against 1 Div 1 team and see what happens. Sure it IS SUSPICIOUS that one Div 2 coach took them. Take it as a compliment.

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/11/2012 12:42:00 AM (view original):
billyg, if you're getting all those considering for $110, I have to assume you're promising EVERYBODY a start.  Doesn't that come back to haunt you later?  Sure you can inform of redshirt and then inform of non-redshirt, but it seems like at the very least by doing that you're costing yourself the possibility of ever redshirting anybody.

Why would that stop you from RSing someone?  Like you said, you can still do the inform options to clear out the start, then just throw some effort at them and try for the RS right before signings or whenever.  I actually do that sometimes at D3, so I'm sure it's even easier to swing at D1 with more money.

Posted by tbird9423 on 10/10/2012 11:04:00 PM (view original):
Just my two cents and am a bit shocked by the responses.  I have also already heard and don't need to hear the same canned bs responses, but how about moving up to DIV II?  Your prestige is what and you are complaining?  Do you not realize that every season you "poach" someone from another team that would like to have that player.  You just can't have it both ways.  If you want to stick at DIV III A+ so you can dominate everyone below you, don't ***** and whine if someone does the exact same thing to you.  Especially if like the professor mentioned, they came up with a strategy that was so good it never even entered your mind?

  Nothing personal against you, more surprised by the responses.  I don't see how the logic of "there not yours until they're signed" changes when we're dealing with more recruits.  I think its kind of bush league to call a guy out on here with the obvious intent of putting him in a negative light.  Every season I have played, I have actually had multiple schools in Divisions above me take multiple players off my list, some considering me and some not.  If you're gonna go for players that a higher division might find attractive, there is really no one but yourself to blame.  Again, not speaking of the specific case (agree with others it may be personal) but for recruiting as a whole. 
 

    

It's always nice when someone starts out a post like this with "and if you disagree with me then you're wrong and you should feel bad."  You call recruiting a player that someone else might want "poaching"..and yeah every single player an A+ signs was wanted by SOMEONE else.  That doesn't make it poaching.  Poaching is going after 3 players from the SAME school at the last possible moment.  It's within the rules, but it's an incredibly obnoxious thing to do.  The problem isn't that a D2 took players from him, but HOW it was done.  That is very different from having 3 players on your watch list who got recruited by 3 different D2 schools.

But please keep ranting about how despicable people are for enjoying D3 more than D1.

I've gone back and forth in my mind on this for a while now, and I'm OK with what was done (and even how it was done) - provided there was no ill intent or revenge or "let's knock him down a couple notches" factor at play. Given the relative strength of the two programs and the fact this likely improved the D2 school, the somewhat suspicious circumstantial evidence isn't enough for me to say for certain something fishy was going on. Also, the term "last cycle" seems to have been changed a bit over this discussion - he didn't come in on the last cycle and sign away guys who were considering, yet unsigned. He came in just before signings began and got those guys considering him. At that point, the battle - should both coaches want it - is on.

I enjoy D3 a great deal, and have no intention of moving up to D1, despite consistently being qualified for some jobs. Part of being a D3 coach, though, is dealing with "poaching" (and that word is being thrown around an awful lot these days, and being applied to things that may not really be poaching). 

I'll be perfectly honest - I look at players who are considering other teams. Especially in what I consider my "backyard" - MN and the Dakotas - if I see another top D3 coach coming in (particular from a distance) and having MN/SD/ND players considering them, I give those players a second look. If it is someone who can play a role for me but I was on the fence about, seeing another top D3 coach expressing interest actually can make it *more* likely I will battle.

If poaching is really taking any player after they are considering someone else, I've poached many players in the past. I've even done it to some other coaches (tianyi7886 at Drew comes to mind) on multiple occasions, with no ill will on my part at all. I've also had it done to me, but again, I don't think with any ill will. It's just part of recruiting.

Chapelhillne has had great success across multiple worlds (including beating me in Tark) and if he was interested in a recruit in my backyard, I'd sure as hell take another look. If I saw he had more interested parties than scholarships, I'd be extremely inclined to try and relieve him of that problem. I say that as someone with a better program than the D2 school that is at issue here.

If I didn't really know what I was doing, taking a look at what other successful owners are doing is probably the best way to learn. Hell, I do that now even though I think I sort of know what I am doing. I've changed strategies recently, due to not only my own experiences, but also by looking at what seems to be working across the World.

And, on a somewhat related note, I think there is too much public focus on the level of recuit. I know it is largely a function of the recruiting system and how pull-downs are used, but there is no "D2 recruit" to me. When I try to pull someone down, I am no more reaching into someone else's cookie-jar than when a D3 coach comes after a guy near me. There are only "recruits" and you have to always be prepared to battle, for a variety of reasons.

In D1 Davidson this offseason I was looking at a few different guys and a Big 6 school had more people considering them then they had scholarships for. I took a flyer and figured If I offered and he was serious he would take him, if not he would let him go to me. I ended up getting one of my best recruits (C Merle Marden) because I figured if he was good enough for that D1 school he was definitely good enough for my D1 program.

Posted by spasticity on 10/11/2012 11:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/11/2012 12:42:00 AM (view original):
billyg, if you're getting all those considering for $110, I have to assume you're promising EVERYBODY a start.  Doesn't that come back to haunt you later?  Sure you can inform of redshirt and then inform of non-redshirt, but it seems like at the very least by doing that you're costing yourself the possibility of ever redshirting anybody.

Why would that stop you from RSing someone?  Like you said, you can still do the inform options to clear out the start, then just throw some effort at them and try for the RS right before signings or whenever.  I actually do that sometimes at D3, so I'm sure it's even easier to swing at D1 with more money.

with the new redshirt system if you inform of RS just to clear promises and then you inform of no redshirt, the player will never accept a RS*. Once you inform of NO redshirt, he holds you to that.

*this season. If you do this to a freshman and sign him, he may take the RS as a sophomore. A lot more sophs have been accepting RS under the new system...