All Forums > General Discussion > Non-Sports > OT- North Carolina and Duke in a mess
10/21/2012 2:34 AM
These stories have been out for quite awhile now.  Weeks actually.
10/21/2012 4:41 AM
I'll bet that, when Duke travels to Chapel Hill, the UNC fans will be covered in bling
10/21/2012 7:41 AM
Posted by alblack56 on 10/21/2012 4:41:00 AM (view original):
I'll bet that, when Duke travels to Chapel Hill, the UNC fans will be covered in bling
lol
10/21/2012 10:32 PM
I'm imagining a poster with a Duke jersey on it and the number 30K
10/22/2012 8:47 AM
Bistiza, who you know has always been and will always be at least as important in obtaining employment as how qualified or capable you are.  But then, we know how you feel about the real world.  You want all people to behave in the way you think is appropriate.
It's about doing what is RIGHT, dahs.

If someone were hired because of their race or gender despite those of other races or genders who were far more qualified, there would be people screaming about how it was wrong.

Yet many people simply seem to accept that it's okay to hire someone based upon them being friends or family to the person or people who make the hiring decision.

Both of these things are equally wrong. Yet there are ridiculous programs in place to protect people based on race and gender which often result in someone less qualified being hired because the program is in place and makes sure certain quotas are set, regardless of who is the best candidate.  Still, there are no programs in place to force those doing hiring to recuse themselves from the process if they are related to or are good friends with candidates. Honestly, if that came out later, they should both lose their jobs.

But let's face it in "the real world" as you like to say, people love cheating the system to get ahead, and most people will do so at every chance they get. I've seen and expereinced it first hand. There is no way to stop a cheat if they are determined enough and smart enough to find a way to get away with it.

People hiring friends and relatives or those of a certain race and gender over others who are obviously more well qualified has always been and will always be wrong. But you're right - it'll keep happening because most people don't care about right and wrong and will do what they want.

Don't get me started because honestly this is a hot button issue for me and I will rant all day if I must.

10/22/2012 9:03 AM (edited)
Devils advocate: you hire a friend or relative first because you know them better and feel you can trust them and know exactly what they bring to the table. Trust is also a job qualification. More than that, who the heck are you to tell someone what qualities they should look for in their applicants? Why is it any of your business?
10/22/2012 9:58 AM
ars-- Hmm, that would be all and good in a free-market system but since we don't have anything like that and most American businesses are at least some way nowadays supported by my tax dollars, I should have a voice in how those tax dollars are spent.  If your business isn't funded by, isn't contracted with/for and isn't in business dealings with the government, then hire whoever you want.  I'll hold my breath for an example of an American business that meets that critieria.  All the rest of the businesses (every business in America) should quit taking care of friends, family or any race and realize that the last two American generations' legacy will be that of scalping America and its future (their own descendants) for meaningless shiny things (including friendships).
    I guess my point is, you can't have it both ways.  Either stand on your own and dictate your own choices or take my tax money and get my opinion if not also my will along with it.
bistiza-- I hope your obvious experience with American baby boomers doesn't color your judement on people in general.  Baby boomers didn't intentionally set out to screw everything up and actually did so most often out of love rather than greed.  Today's young people understand the unhappiness that is present in that generation and are more aware of the reasons behind that unhappiness than many of the baby boomers themselves.  I personally have big hopes that the Baby Boomer's naitevity will be replaced by a thirst for actual truth beyond a 30- second TV commercial and that search for truth will hopefully in turn yield a return to the justice that I believe you to be yearning for based off of your responses. 
   One of the funniest things you will ever hear and you probably have heard often is, a baby boomer complaining about jobs going overseas in the same conversation that they complain that their 401k took a hit.  If my 7 year old can understand that concept, how come the generation provided the most opportunity in the history of the world cannot?
10/22/2012 10:15 AM
Devils advocate: you hire a friend or relative first because you know them better and feel you can trust them and know exactly what they bring to the table. Trust is also a job qualification. More than that, who the heck are you to tell someone what qualities they should look for in their applicants? Why is it any of your business?

The main point is that hiring should be done based upon your job qualifications, NOT upon who you are in ways which have nothing to do with the job (which includes who you know, your race, gender, and all of those things).

Trust is part of a job, but when you hire someone, you build that trust over time at the actual job.

I'm not trying to tell someone what qualifications they should look for - I'm simply saying they should be looking for those qualifications, not looking to hire someone just because they know them.

It is my business if it affects me in any way, and these practices can and have done so in the past and probably will continue to affect me in the future.  I've been flat out told I was the best candidate for a job but because my skin wasn't the right color I wasn't hired. I've also been told I wasn't hired because I wasn't the right gender to meet their quotas. Those are the times I know about. I'm sure I've lost jobs because of those things other times, and I'm also sure I've lost jobs where I was most qualified to some fool who knew the right person or had the right connections.

All of it is wrong, no matter if it happens to me or someone else.

tbird,

I wasn't specifically speaking of baby boomers, but you do raise a couple of interesting points.

Not all of the baby boomers were so easy to fool by some things. My father is a baby boomer and yet he lost more than one job himself to the same programs which remain in effect today costing me jobs many years later, and he didn't like it any better than I do.

Still, I do resent how so many things in America are geared toward the baby boomer generation simply because of their numbers and the influence of that plus they are the right age where people care about their issues more than those of other ages.

In my expereince with baby boomers and those similar to that age group, I've determined that despite the fact they have children (I am the child of a baby boomer as I mentioned) and even grandchildren, most of them do not show much care for the future generations. By that I mean, they only care if social security and medicare and other programs are available for them and do not give a second thought to the fact these programs and other means to care for future generations may not be around or may be compromised because of their actions now.

To put it straight: I see the baby boomers as selfishly sucking the systems that support older people dry, dying off and leaving nothing for their children and grandchildren, and very few of them care as long as they get to retire and lead the lifestyle they want. This is coming from someone whose parents are baby boomers.

I know that opinion is not going to be well received, probably by baby boomers on here and others, but it's how I feel.

 
10/22/2012 10:23 AM
Then you can say you shouldn't look for education or training, because you can build education and training over the course of time at the job. The is a positive non-zero value to a quality or qualification being present from the start as opposed to being acquired over time. And that quality isn't the same as skin color or gender which, I agree, should not be a qualification ... But to which, also, such things will be a qualification in people's eyes, one way or another, as long as human beings are human beings. Even you, in all your perfection, would likely use some qualities outside of purely the "objective qualifications" while picking an employee. For example 'do I like him and think I could work with him?" Has nothing to do with hard data qualifications ... It does have quite a bit to do with appropriateness for the job, however; someone you can't stand to work with wont be good for you no matter how qualified.
10/22/2012 10:31 AM

Yes, this might turn into just a discussion between us, but I don't think that is your opinion, I think that is fact.  Ask a baby boomer (even a very rich one), what their great, great grandchildren's life will be like and vast majority will answer, " Uh, I hadn't thought about that."  Imagine if their parents (the great generation) had thought the same way.  Again, that is not a slight on baby boomers as people just on their inability to look outside themselves or even just to be honest.  Even on this thread, you got the typical justification response : "its ok to hire the Mom because she can bring in more money because she is connected" ???  Anyone with any logic or even with a single foot outside of the "baby boomer bubble" would understand why his Mom got the job.  Whether that is right or wrong can be debated but the bigger problem is trying to find justification based off of a small portion of the whole picture that just happens to fit an argument.  
    The nice thing is I have been to retirement homes and let me tell you, KARMA is real.  Baby Boomers are the first and ONLY generation in the history of the world who believe they are entitled to not work for half of their lives and reap the benefits from others work (both past and present).  I hope that time is worth the time they'll spend being cared for by minimum wage workers who don't give a **** about them.  
    Nothing personal on your Dad or any baby-boomer.  Most of us have fallen right in line into that system and continue screwing future generations and others by our sole focus being on ourselves.  Myself included (thanks great grandkids-- enjoyed Disneyland).  But you have to be pretty clueless to not understand that system and pretty much just ignorant to in any way try to justify any of our systems.  Live in them, fine-- Tell me their right and just, not so fine.   

10/22/2012 10:46 AM
Posted by a_in_the_b on 10/22/2012 10:23:00 AM (view original):
Then you can say you shouldn't look for education or training, because you can build education and training over the course of time at the job. The is a positive non-zero value to a quality or qualification being present from the start as opposed to being acquired over time. And that quality isn't the same as skin color or gender which, I agree, should not be a qualification ... But to which, also, such things will be a qualification in people's eyes, one way or another, as long as human beings are human beings. Even you, in all your perfection, would likely use some qualities outside of purely the "objective qualifications" while picking an employee. For example 'do I like him and think I could work with him?" Has nothing to do with hard data qualifications ... It does have quite a bit to do with appropriateness for the job, however; someone you can't stand to work with wont be good for you no matter how qualified.
AB- this wasn't there while I was typing but I think you helped illustrate my point.  On a side note, I think most people understand that today's education/training is of little value.  Outside of education or social services that is...
The bigger point is just trying to help shift perspective.  If getting along well with others is the number one attribute when searching for a co-worker, then we're already doomed to mediocrity.  Just really glad that your Dad or Grandpa didn't leave the foxhole 70 years ago because he couldn't stand to work with one of his company mates. 


10/22/2012 10:53 AM
Posted by tbird9423 on 10/22/2012 10:46:00 AM (view original):
Posted by a_in_the_b on 10/22/2012 10:23:00 AM (view original):
Then you can say you shouldn't look for education or training, because you can build education and training over the course of time at the job. The is a positive non-zero value to a quality or qualification being present from the start as opposed to being acquired over time. And that quality isn't the same as skin color or gender which, I agree, should not be a qualification ... But to which, also, such things will be a qualification in people's eyes, one way or another, as long as human beings are human beings. Even you, in all your perfection, would likely use some qualities outside of purely the "objective qualifications" while picking an employee. For example 'do I like him and think I could work with him?" Has nothing to do with hard data qualifications ... It does have quite a bit to do with appropriateness for the job, however; someone you can't stand to work with wont be good for you no matter how qualified.
AB- this wasn't there while I was typing but I think you helped illustrate my point.  On a side note, I think most people understand that today's education/training is of little value.  Outside of education or social services that is...
The bigger point is just trying to help shift perspective.  If getting along well with others is the number one attribute when searching for a co-worker, then we're already doomed to mediocrity.  Just really glad that your Dad or Grandpa didn't leave the foxhole 70 years ago because he couldn't stand to work with one of his company mates. 


Number one? No. But it is a non-zero factor.
10/22/2012 11:00 AM
Posted by arssanguinus on 10/22/2012 9:03:00 AM (view original):
Devils advocate: you hire a friend or relative first because you know them better and feel you can trust them and know exactly what they bring to the table. Trust is also a job qualification. More than that, who the heck are you to tell someone what qualities they should look for in their applicants? Why is it any of your business?
Doesn't matter.  It's the appearance of impropriety.  It happens all the time in life.

It's why certain employers have strict anti-nepotism policies.

It's especially valid in recruiting amateur athletes who aren't supposed to be getting benefits (whether they should is another issue).
10/22/2012 11:08 AM
How is today's education/training of little value?  I don't agree with that at all.  

I'm a developer and we're always sending people off for training, and it is unquestionably valuable to our department/company.  Be it a new technology like iOS/droid development a while back or windows 8 development lately, to say that there is little value in that is preposterous to me - it is absolutely necessary for us to keep up and stay relevant.  My wife is a nurse and, again, they are sent to training to learn new methods and practices for their various responsibilities... If you were hospitalized, would you want the nurse who is still performing his/her job the same way for the past fifteen years or the one who has adapted to new methodologies learned in training over that time?  Do you realize they used to give pregnant women a "whiff" of ether (seriously, that was the measurement, a whiff) to deal with the pain?

And team chemistry is a large factor in our hiring decisions as well since a lot of our projects are team oriented.  I might be working on a front end while someone else is working on a service layer and someone else is working on a data layer while we are all communicating with our analysts, then eventually bringing all of those components together.  If we can't/don't have effective communication, then problems will arise.  We try to weed that stuff out early in the interview process based on past experiences - it's only logical.
10/22/2012 11:10 AM
Then you can say you shouldn't look for education or training, because you can build education and training over the course of time at the job. The is a positive non-zero value to a quality or qualification being present from the start as opposed to being acquired over time.

This value shouldn't override or dismiss someone's obviously better qualifications for the job itself, but too often that is exactly the case.

tbird,

You're right - people don't tend to think about anyone but themselves most of the time, and this is especially true of the baby boomer generation from everything I've seen.

Every time someone says there is an IMMEDIATE threat to social security, medicare, or other programs, the baby boomers all rally and complain. HOWEVER, every time anyone mentions the LONG TERM threat to those programs, baby boomers shrug their collective shoulders and mumble how they'll be dead before that happens, because THEY DON'T CARE.

Never mind their own children and grandchildren and their family's future generations - they want their retirement, and it doesn't matter who has to pay for it or suffer in the future so they can have it.

Even though it would cause my father and grandmother to suffer, if it were up to me, I'd institute a "you get out what you pay in system" beginning right away. No longer would those of us who are working be subsidizing the retirements of the entitled baby boomer generation and others. You would invest in your own retirement and you'd get out what you put in, which means the system would never fail upon itself. The current system would run until it has no money and then everyone on it would have to find another way to get money without sucking the rest of us dry by forcing us to pay into a system where we wont' get the full benefits like they do.
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