All Forums > General Discussion > Non-Sports > Let's face it...
10/23/2012 12:49 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 10/23/2012 12:26:00 PM (view original):
Without getting too hyperbolic, it's pretty clear that we are better off now than we were four years ago. That's the Reagan standard right?
If by "we" you mean you and a mouse in your pocket, I guess you're right.

I know virtually NO ONE who is better off now.    Houses are worth a lot less these days than they were 4 years ago.  And, as you know, that's usually the biggest purchase you'll make in your lifetime.
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10/23/2012 12:58 PM

Obama In 2009: “If I Don’t Have This Done In Three Years, Then There’s Going To Be A One-Term Proposition.” OBAMA: “That’s exactly right. And – and, you know, a year from now I think people – are going to see that – we’re starting to make some progress. But there’s still going to be some pain out there. If I don’t have this done in three years, then there’s going to be a one-term proposition.” (NBC’s ” The Today Show,” 2/2/09)

In 2008, Obama Said Adding $4 Trillion To The National Debt Was “Irresponsible” And “Unpatriotic.” OBAMA: “The problem is, is that the way Bush has done it over the last eight years is to take out a credit card from the Bank of China in the name of our children, driving up our national debt from $5 trillion for the first 42 presidents – #43 added $4 trillion by his lonesome, so that we now have over $9 trillion of debt that we are going to have to pay back — $30,000 for every man, woman and child. That’s irresponsible. It’s unpatriotic.” (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks At A Campaign Event, Fargo, ND, 7/3/08)

In February 2009, Obama Said That He Would “Cut The Deficit In Half By The End Of [His] First Term In Office.” OBAMA: “Yesterday, I held a fiscal summit where I pledged to cut the deficit in half by the end of my first term in office.” (President Barack Obama, Address to Joint Session of Congress , 2/24/09)

Obama Promised That His Housing Program Would Prevent 7 To 9 Million Families From Foreclosure. “And we will pursue the housing plan I’m outlining today. And through this plan, we will help between 7 and 9 million families restructure or refinance their mortgages so they can afford-avoid foreclosure.” (President Barack Obama, Remarks On The Home Mortgage Industry In Mesa, Arizona , 2/18/09)

  • Politifact: Only Two Million Homeowners Have Been Helped By Obama’s Housing Programs. “ But after three years, only about 2 million people have won permanent mortgage help, according to the Department of Housing and Urban Development. The two main programs were dubbed HAMP and HARP. Under the Home Affordable Modification Program, or HAMP, lenders were encouraged to restructure loans for borrowers who were struggling to pay.” (Molly Moorhead, “President Barack Obama’s Efforts To Help Foreclosure Crisis Have Fallen Short,” Politifact , 5/28/12)

As A Candidate, Obama Promised That His Health Reforms Would Save American Families $2,500 By The End Of His First Term. OBAMA: “If you are ready for change, then we can stop talking about the outrage of 47 million people without health insurance and start doing something about it. I’ve put forward a plan that says everybody will have the same health care if they want it that I have as a member of Congress, that you can’t be excluded for pre-existing conditions, we’ll negotiate with the drug companies for the cheapest available prices. If you’re 25 or younger you can stay on your parents’ health insurance. If you’ve got health insurance, we’re going to work with you to lower your premiums by $2500 per family per year. And we will not wait 20 years from now to do it or 10 years from now to do it. We will do it by the end of my first term as president of the United States of America.” (Senator Barack Obama, Remarks At Campaign Event, Columbus, OH, 2/27/08)

Under Obama, The Average Cost Of Family Health Care Premiums Has Increased By $3,065 From $12,680 To $15,745, A 24.2 Percent Increase. (“Employer Health Benefits, 2012 Annual Survey, Exhibit 6.4? The Kaiser Family Foundation, 2012)

  • “The Average Annual Premiums In 2012 Are $5,615 For Single Coverage And $15,745 For Family Coverage.” (“Employer Health Benefits, 2012 Annual Survey,” The Kaiser Family Foundation, 9/11/12)
  • “Average Premiums Increased 3% For Single Coverage And 4% For Family Coverage In The Last Year.” (“Employer Health Benefits; 2012 Annual Survey,” The Kaiser Family Foundation, 9/11/12)

Obama Repeatedly Promised To Restore America’s Standing In The World. OBAMA: “And we will restore our moral standing in the world. We will once again lead the world not just militarily, but diplomatically, economically.” (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks At A Campaign Event, Charleston, SC, 1/10/08)

Global Opinion Of Obama’s International Policies “Has Declined Dramatically Since 2009.” “Global opinion of President Barack Obama has declined dramatically since 2009, according to a new survey of the president and his policies in 21 countries. Approval of Obama’s international policies has dropped from 78 percent to 63 percent in Europe; from 34 percent to 15 percent in Muslim Countries; from 40 percent to 22 percent in Russia; and from 57 percent to 27 percent in China, reports the Pew Global Attitudes Project.” (Tim Mak, “World Poll: Chill On Obama Policies,” Politico, 6/13/12)

Obama’s Effort To “Bolster The U.S. Image” In The Middle East “Has Been A Failure.” “‘Anyone who tells you otherwise, anyone who tells you that America is in decline or that our influence has waned, doesn’t know what they’re talking about. That’s not the message we get from leaders around the world, all of whom are eager to work with us. That’s not how people feel from Tokyo to Berlin; from Cape Town to Rio; where opinions of America are higher than they’ve been in years.’ Obama’s self-congratulatory tone aside, the most striking thing about this list is that it does not include any cities in the Islamic world. Obama had made a high-profile speech in Cairo in 2009 designed to bolster the U.S. image; judging by recent polling, his effort has been a failure.” (Glenn Kessler, “Fact-Checking The 2012 State Of The Union Speech,” The Washington Post’s “Fact Checker” , 1/25/12)

  • After Two And A Half Years Under Obama, “The U.S. Is Actually More Unpopular In The Middle East Than It Was In The Last Year Of The Bush Administration.” “And from the beginning of his administration, Obama made reconciliation with the Muslim world one of his highest foreign policy priorities. Given those sentiments, it is troubling in the extreme that, some 2 1/2 years later, the U.S. is actually more unpopular in the Middle East than it was in the last year of the Bush administration.” (Editorial, “U.S. Influence In The Middle East Hits New Low Under Obama: View,” Bloomberg, 9/20/11)

Obama In 2008: If China Is “Devaluing Their Currency To Make Their Goods Cheaper And Our Goods More Expensive And We’re Not Challenging Them … Dumping Cheap Steel And Cheap Goods Into This Country Because They’re Subsidized By The Chinese Government And We’re Not Challenging Them, That’s Just Not Fair. It’s Not Right…” OBAMA: “If they’re devaluing their currency to make their goods cheaper and our goods more expensive and we’re not challenging them, if they’re stealing our intellectual property, our copyrights and we don’t say anything about it, we don’t take them before the World Trade Organization, if they’re dumping cheap steel and cheap goods into this country because they’re subsidized by the Chinese government and we’re not challenging them, that’s just not fair. It’s not right, and it’s going to undermine our economic condition over the long term.” (Craig Gilbert, “Candidates Berate China,” Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 4/14/08)

In May 2012, The Treasury Department Said That China “Did Not Meet The Definition Of A Currency Manipulator Under Its Standards.” “The Treasury Department on Friday once again declined to name China a currency manipulator despite bipartisan calls for action from Congress. Treasury noted that China’s currency has appreciated against the dollar since June 2010, and said it did not meet the definition of a currency manipulator under its standards.” (Julian Pecquet, “Treasury: China Not Manipulating Currency,” The Hill ‘s “Global Affairs” Blog , 05/25/12)

The Washington Post : “China’s Policy Has Probably Cost Americans Hundreds Of Thousands Of Jobs And Contributed To China’s Destabilizing Pile Of Trillions Of Dollars In Reserves.” “China’s undervalued renminbi is a long-standing, bipartisan concern, and it is not a phony one: In pursuit of growth led by exports, China has held the renminbi down in relation to the dollar, rendering its goods artificially cheap in the U.S. market. The renminbi would gain about 20 percent against the dollar if it were allowed to float freely like other currencies, according to the Peterson Institute for International Economics. China’s policy has probably cost Americans hundreds of thousands of jobs and contributed to China’s destabilizing pile of trillions of dollars in reserves.” (Editorial, “Breaking China? Last Thing Needed Is A Trade War,” The Washington Post, 9/1/11)


 

10/23/2012 1:01 PM
Does that sound like the track record of a winner?
10/23/2012 1:02 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/23/2012 12:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 10/23/2012 12:26:00 PM (view original):
Without getting too hyperbolic, it's pretty clear that we are better off now than we were four years ago. That's the Reagan standard right?
If by "we" you mean you and a mouse in your pocket, I guess you're right.

I know virtually NO ONE who is better off now.    Houses are worth a lot less these days than they were 4 years ago.  And, as you know, that's usually the biggest purchase you'll make in your lifetime.
The economy lost 240,000 jobs in October 2008. The economy will gain jobs in October 2012 (it gained 114,000 non-farm jobs in September 2012)

On October 24th (the closest date I could find to today) 2008 the Dow Jones was at 8,378.95. The Dow opened at 13,344.90 today.

Would you rather have the economy of today or the economy of 2008?
10/23/2012 1:06 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 10/23/2012 1:01:00 PM (view original):
Does that sound like the track record of a winner?
Yeah, yeah...I get it.  He didn't deliver on everything he promised.

But show me an objective source that says he made the economy worse with his policies than it would have been without them....because that's what you're claiming.
10/23/2012 1:12 PM
Posted by jvford on 10/23/2012 1:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 10/23/2012 1:01:00 PM (view original):
Does that sound like the track record of a winner?
Yeah, yeah...I get it.  He didn't deliver on everything he promised.

But show me an objective source that says he made the economy worse with his policies than it would have been without them....because that's what you're claiming.
Again, how does one prove or disprove a hypothetical?

If John McCain was elected in 2008, our $16t deficit would be a $16t surplus, and we'd all be shitting golden eggs.

Feel free to disprove if you don't agree.  Show your work.
10/23/2012 1:18 PM
Again, show me an objective source that says he made the economy worse.
10/23/2012 1:22 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 10/23/2012 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 10/23/2012 11:45:00 AM (view original):
So what's the objective source to say that Obama is a genuine failure? 

Foreign Policy?  Romney seems to agree with everything he's done.
Economy?  How do we know that we shouldn't be in a depression right now, if not for Obama's policies?
"How do we know that we shouldn't be in a depression right now, if not for Obama's policies?"

That might be the dumbest post I've read in these forums in, like, forever.
Show me an objective source that affirms that we would be in a depression if not for Obama's policies.

This is your statement.  The burden of proof is on you.
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10/23/2012 1:36 PM
Posted by tecwrg on 10/23/2012 1:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 10/23/2012 11:57:00 AM (view original):
Posted by jvford on 10/23/2012 11:45:00 AM (view original):
So what's the objective source to say that Obama is a genuine failure? 

Foreign Policy?  Romney seems to agree with everything he's done.
Economy?  How do we know that we shouldn't be in a depression right now, if not for Obama's policies?
"How do we know that we shouldn't be in a depression right now, if not for Obama's policies?"

That might be the dumbest post I've read in these forums in, like, forever.
Show me an objective source that affirms that we would be in a depression if not for Obama's policies.

This is your statement.  The burden of proof is on you.
Why?  I asked how do we know?  You understand that means I'm not sure, right?

This could go back and forth forever but it comes down to this:

We went through years of artificial growth, economy crashed/reverted to the mean/corrected/dipped/...whatever you want to call it. First Bush, then Obama tried to stop the decline.....we can argue about how successful he was....then he tried to jump start the economy....again, we can argue about how successful he was.  It all depends on where you are and where you think the economy should be relative to where it is.  BL showed several measures that indicate the country is better off....but should it be even better or is it a miracle that we're not in a depression?  The question of "are you better off" is an individual one.  Mike and everyone he knows is worse off....just about everyone I know is better off.  But let me say this....if the vast majority of people were worse off than they were 4 years ago, would Obama have ANY chance of getting re-elected?
10/23/2012 2:27 PM
Posted by bad_luck on 10/23/2012 1:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 10/23/2012 12:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 10/23/2012 12:26:00 PM (view original):
Without getting too hyperbolic, it's pretty clear that we are better off now than we were four years ago. That's the Reagan standard right?
If by "we" you mean you and a mouse in your pocket, I guess you're right.

I know virtually NO ONE who is better off now.    Houses are worth a lot less these days than they were 4 years ago.  And, as you know, that's usually the biggest purchase you'll make in your lifetime.
The economy lost 240,000 jobs in October 2008. The economy will gain jobs in October 2012 (it gained 114,000 non-farm jobs in September 2012)

On October 24th (the closest date I could find to today) 2008 the Dow Jones was at 8,378.95. The Dow opened at 13,344.90 today.

Would you rather have the economy of today or the economy of 2008?
Unemployment was 6.5% in 10/08.   More or less now?

Either way, I wouldn't try to cherrypick one month to "prove" a point(you did and did so poorly).   

10/23/2012 2:36 PM
More now. But where was it heading then and where is it heading now?

Would you trade our economy today for the economy we had in 2008?
10/23/2012 2:40 PM
A "peak" month, when we know people have just stopped looking, 23m unemployed or underemployed isn't an indicator of better times.  

We know where the current administration has taken us over the last 4 years.   Is that good enough?

Or do we need someone with a successful track record in business?   I'm even willing to concede that Romney's foreign policy looks like it was constructed by child with scissors and colored paper.   But I think the man will be fantastic for the economy.
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