All Forums > General Discussion > Non-Sports > Real Opinions? Who Do You Vote For And Why?
11/5/2012 8:58 AM
Posted by seamar_116 on 11/5/2012 8:22:00 AM (view original):
What is Romney's income? How much tax did he pay? Divide. Simple.

We would know more if he released more than two years worth of returns. Like he paid ZERO in federal taxes from 1996 to 2009. Legally, I am sure. So why not disclose that so everyone can take advantage of that?

All of Romney's income was capital gains.  He paid the capital gains tax.

Unless you have any valid reason to believe that he has done anything illegal with respect to taxes, then you're just part of the problem with disseminating the political fear-mongering class warfare bullshit that's become the left's weapon of choice this election season.

Congratulations on being a tool.
11/5/2012 9:03 AM
believe it or not, ever since I started listening to people with more money than me and watching how they manage their money I have become much better myself at acquiring wealth (and keeping it).  Apparently you get all emotional and take offense.  I guess we differ there.

First, let's be clear here: I wasn't talking about me. I was talking about my observations that most people take offense at the idea of anyone telling them how to spend their money. None of it had anything to do with my personal view on the matter, so please don't jump to conclusions like "apparently you get all emotional and take offense".

Second, while it is sometimes smart to listen to financial advise from those with more wealth than you, this certainly isn't always the case. Remember many times people obtain their wealth through means that have little or nothing to do with their ability to generate it themselves. Also, even those who can manage their own finances fine don't always make good advisers to others.
That's the point... many of us are not happy paying taxes so that people can decide to coast on gov't welfare.  I don't care if that's what they want to do...   I don't want to provide for it.
I'm not sure why so many people have this possessive attitude toward tax money, and why they can't seem to accept the simple truth: Once you've paid your taxes, it's NOT YOUR MONEY ANYMORE. It belongs to whomever it goes to, not to you, so your decision making power on it is severely limited (if you have any say at all).

There is no need to obsess over how your tax dollars are spent. Sure, you should be concerned tax dollars aren't spent in an unwise manner as a general rule, but too many people get caught up in thinking of it as "MY tax dollars" when in reality it's no longer your money so it's out of your hands, so vote for those who make wiser decisions if you don't like the way it's spent and don't worry about it the rest of the time.

The bottom line here is this: It's NOT you who is providing for these services, it is your government. So go to the government to create change or vote for change. Don't attack those who merely utilize the programs - go to the source.
Not if their chosen lifestyle is to live primarily off  of government handouts, which is paid for out of the taxes that I pay based on the work that I do.  Why should my hard work subsidize the lifestyle of somebody who chooses not to work?

If your argument is people shouldn't be allowed to choose not to work, then that argument should apply across the board, to any and all who choose this - including the independently wealthy, the house wives or house husbands, and anyone else - not just to those who use government services.

If your argument is about government services, your problem is with the government, not with those who are merely using what is provided to them.

Either way, there is no reason to attack the people using the services.
Sure.  If they're not taking government handouts, they are free to live their life anyway they want.
 
Your problem is with the way the government manages its "handouts", not with people.

EVERYONE is free to live their live any way they want. If you have a problem with the way the government manages "handouts", deal with the government. Don't attack the people for living their lives.
You say "taking advantage".  I say "abusing the system".

This is the same thing everyone does in America. They take advantage of opportunities given to them. Your problem is that you don't think they deserve to be able to do this, but that problem should be directed at the government, not at the people who are doing it.

They are doing the same thing most Americans do - they're just doing it in a way you personally disapprove of. That doesn't mean they're abusing the system, but it could mean the system needs fixed. Either way, to blame them for doing the same thing you and others do every day (albeit in a different way) doesn't make any sense.

Of course you won't see the logic in this argument because you probably see yourself as somehow better than those people and more deserving of what you have in life, since you work harder or don't get "handouts" or whatever.

The fact is both you and these people are simply doing whatever they can to legally make themselves as comfortable in life as possible. The method is different, but the goal is the same.
When did I ever say that "all people taking government handouts are freeloaders"? All I said was that some are. Do you disagree that some people do abuse the system?
 
Capitalism works based off of greed. People will take advantage of anything they can to make their lives better, including taking actions that are LEGAL yet appear to some to be "abusing the system". This is no different than those who take advantage of tax loopholes, open businesses designed to exploit the poor or elderly or others, etc. It is questionable ethically but completely legal.

If you don't like that, take it up with those who make it legal, which is the government. Don't attack those who do the same thing you do, which is take advantage of what is available to them to make their lives more comfortable.








 
11/5/2012 9:06 AM
You'd like the sitting President to run on his record.   Obama has not been able to do that so he's gone about dividing the country between rich(which he is) and poor(who he claims to want to help). 
11/5/2012 9:24 AM
Posted by seamar_116 on 11/5/2012 8:22:00 AM (view original):
What is Romney's income? How much tax did he pay? Divide. Simple.

We would know more if he released more than two years worth of returns. Like he paid ZERO in federal taxes from 1996 to 2009. Legally, I am sure. So why not disclose that so everyone can take advantage of that?

who cares about his taxes? it's so silly to make a big deal about seeing his tax return... I'm sure he is legally paying the least amount of taxes possible. I would, you would, swamp would, Obama would. that's the name of the game.


talking about a secretary vs Romney or Buffett.... come on now. compare apples to apples. are we taking effective tax rate? marginal, average, statutory? and does anyone even have that info.... no. so why even bring it up?
11/5/2012 9:38 AM
Posted by bistiza on 11/5/2012 9:03:00 AM (view original):
believe it or not, ever since I started listening to people with more money than me and watching how they manage their money I have become much better myself at acquiring wealth (and keeping it).  Apparently you get all emotional and take offense.  I guess we differ there.

First, let's be clear here: I wasn't talking about me. I was talking about my observations that most people take offense at the idea of anyone telling them how to spend their money. None of it had anything to do with my personal view on the matter, so please don't jump to conclusions like "apparently you get all emotional and take offense".

Second, while it is sometimes smart to listen to financial advise from those with more wealth than you, this certainly isn't always the case. Remember many times people obtain their wealth through means that have little or nothing to do with their ability to generate it themselves. Also, even those who can manage their own finances fine don't always make good advisers to others.
That's the point... many of us are not happy paying taxes so that people can decide to coast on gov't welfare.  I don't care if that's what they want to do...   I don't want to provide for it.
I'm not sure why so many people have this possessive attitude toward tax money, and why they can't seem to accept the simple truth: Once you've paid your taxes, it's NOT YOUR MONEY ANYMORE. It belongs to whomever it goes to, not to you, so your decision making power on it is severely limited (if you have any say at all).

There is no need to obsess over how your tax dollars are spent. Sure, you should be concerned tax dollars aren't spent in an unwise manner as a general rule, but too many people get caught up in thinking of it as "MY tax dollars" when in reality it's no longer your money so it's out of your hands, so vote for those who make wiser decisions if you don't like the way it's spent and don't worry about it the rest of the time.

The bottom line here is this: It's NOT you who is providing for these services, it is your government. So go to the government to create change or vote for change. Don't attack those who merely utilize the programs - go to the source.
Not if their chosen lifestyle is to live primarily off  of government handouts, which is paid for out of the taxes that I pay based on the work that I do.  Why should my hard work subsidize the lifestyle of somebody who chooses not to work?

If your argument is people shouldn't be allowed to choose not to work, then that argument should apply across the board, to any and all who choose this - including the independently wealthy, the house wives or house husbands, and anyone else - not just to those who use government services.

If your argument is about government services, your problem is with the government, not with those who are merely using what is provided to them.

Either way, there is no reason to attack the people using the services.
Sure.  If they're not taking government handouts, they are free to live their life anyway they want.
 
Your problem is with the way the government manages its "handouts", not with people.

EVERYONE is free to live their live any way they want. If you have a problem with the way the government manages "handouts", deal with the government. Don't attack the people for living their lives.
You say "taking advantage".  I say "abusing the system".

This is the same thing everyone does in America. They take advantage of opportunities given to them. Your problem is that you don't think they deserve to be able to do this, but that problem should be directed at the government, not at the people who are doing it.

They are doing the same thing most Americans do - they're just doing it in a way you personally disapprove of. That doesn't mean they're abusing the system, but it could mean the system needs fixed. Either way, to blame them for doing the same thing you and others do every day (albeit in a different way) doesn't make any sense.

Of course you won't see the logic in this argument because you probably see yourself as somehow better than those people and more deserving of what you have in life, since you work harder or don't get "handouts" or whatever.

The fact is both you and these people are simply doing whatever they can to legally make themselves as comfortable in life as possible. The method is different, but the goal is the same.
When did I ever say that "all people taking government handouts are freeloaders"? All I said was that some are. Do you disagree that some people do abuse the system?
 
Capitalism works based off of greed. People will take advantage of anything they can to make their lives better, including taking actions that are LEGAL yet appear to some to be "abusing the system". This is no different than those who take advantage of tax loopholes, open businesses designed to exploit the poor or elderly or others, etc. It is questionable ethically but completely legal.

If you don't like that, take it up with those who make it legal, which is the government. Don't attack those who do the same thing you do, which is take advantage of what is available to them to make their lives more comfortable.








 
to your first point. Then find somebody else that knows how to manage their money and can help. go to an outreach group. Buy a Susie Orman book. Go to library and get the book. If you can't read then watch her on TV it's that simple. and yes.... you are being emotional. look at your responses..... you argue minority instances as if they are a majority but to your point - a lottery winner probably doesn't have the tool set to teach someone how to make money. good thing not that many people win the lottery.
11/5/2012 10:20 AM
First, stop assigning emotion to a situation where logic is being applied and you simply don't agree with it.

Second, it's not just lottery winners who have money but probably cannot teach others how to manage it. Many people obtain wealth through no means of their own or through luck or even unwise means. Also, even those who made money for themselves often can't teach or advise others on it.

My point is that unless they want to seek it out themselves, most people don't want advise from others, and in particular, they don't want to be told how to manage or spend their money.

There is nothing that gives anyone the right to tell someone how to manage their money. To my specific point here: just because someone is poor or uses the government aid doesn't mean anyone has the right to judge how they spend whatever money they do have.

11/5/2012 10:55 AM

Government aid = MY money.   That gives me the right. 

If you loan a friend $500 so he can pay his rent, you're not going to be happy if he's wearing a brand new pair of  LeBron's $300 sneakers the next day.  Same applies to the woman using food stamps to buy her staples then whips out a $100 bill to buy a case of beer and carton of smokes.

11/5/2012 11:24 AM
and peanut butter cups!!!!
11/5/2012 11:38 AM
Government aid = MY money.   That gives me the right. 
This is my point. Government aid is NOT your money - it's the government's money. It stopped being your money as soon as you paid it in taxes or whatever other method the government has collected it from you.

You don't buy something at the store and then complain about how the store uses the money, do you? If you don't like how the store spends the money, you suggest changes or don't shop there anymore.

If you don't like how the government is spending IT'S money, you let them know about it and suggest changes or don't vote for current leaders anymore.

In any case, it's NOT your money, so you can't tell people how to spend it.

It doesn't make any sense to attack people who are simply doing what they are legally allowed to do, and in fact is the same type of thing anyone else does but in different ways.
If you loan a friend $500 so he can pay his rent, you're not going to be happy if he's wearing a brand new pair of  LeBron's $300 sneakers the next day.
First, this isn't a proper analogy, because you are not loaning money to people who utilize government programs. There is no loan involved, and as I already mentioned, it isn't your money anyway.

Second, there is again this notion that you somehow have the right to dictate how someone else spends what money they do have. If you agreed to loan a friend money, unless you specifically agreed he wouldn't spend his own money on certain other things, you have zero right to be angry when he does. As long as he keeps his agreement with you (as it was made) then you have no other claim to what money he spends or where, as he has kept the deal as agreed upon. If he breaks the deal and doesn't pay you as agreed upon, then you can take issue with that, but you still have no right to tell him how else to spend money.
 
 
Same applies to the woman using food stamps to buy her staples then whips out a $100 bill to buy a case of beer and carton of smokes.
You may think she's being unwise, and you're entitled to your opinion. However, you have no right to tell her how to spend her money, regardless of what she buys, the same way no one can tell you how to spend your money.

If you have a problem with someone such as the woman in this example, go to the government. Don't attack someone who is doing nothing legally wrong and act like you have the right to tell them how to live their lives, because you don't.
11/5/2012 11:51 AM (edited)
Posted by bistiza on 11/5/2012 10:20:00 AM (view original):
First, stop assigning emotion to a situation where logic is being applied and you simply don't agree with it.

Second, it's not just lottery winners who have money but probably cannot teach others how to manage it. Many people obtain wealth through no means of their own or through luck or even unwise means. Also, even those who made money for themselves often can't teach or advise others on it.

My point is that unless they want to seek it out themselves, most people don't want advise from others, and in particular, they don't want to be told how to manage or spend their money.

There is nothing that gives anyone the right to tell someone how to manage their money. To my specific point here: just because someone is poor or uses the government aid doesn't mean anyone has the right to judge how they spend whatever money they do have.

I'm a judger. I have the right to judge anyone I want. I'm infact judging you right now.... Sorry if you feel that's not politically correct. I also have they right to tell someone the best way to spend their money.... they also have the right to not listen to me.

I actually agree that most people don't want (I'll add in 'forced') financial advice from others, or to be told how to manage their money.... and I'll also add that's why they are not very good at managing their money. direct correlation?

most people in my experience do however want financial advice.... they just don't know how to ask for it or where to go. it's not like they enjoy being poor. right?
11/5/2012 11:56 AM
That's one of the main problems with America - too many people want to judge others, when they really don't have the right to do so.

People have the right to live their lives they way they want as long as they aren't breaking the law. That's what it means to live in a "free country".

People also have the right to think whatever they'd like, so you can judge whoever you want in your own mind and no one can tell you otherwise.

People also have the right to free speech, which means they can voice those opinions. Still, if I was in the unfortunate circumstance of having to rely on government aid and you saw that and tried to tell me how to live my life, I'd probably tell you where you can shove your opinion as you have no right to tell me how to run my life.

Most people do NOT want financial advise from a random person who wants to judge them simply for using the government programs available to them. If you doubt this, go to a store frequented by such people and every time you see one of them using their food stamp cards, make sure to evaluate their purchases and tell them which ones you think are wise and unwise and see how they react.

11/5/2012 12:26 PM
Posted by bistiza on 11/5/2012 11:38:00 AM (view original):
Government aid = MY money.   That gives me the right. 
This is my point. Government aid is NOT your money - it's the government's money. It stopped being your money as soon as you paid it in taxes or whatever other method the government has collected it from you.

You don't buy something at the store and then complain about how the store uses the money, do you? If you don't like how the store spends the money, you suggest changes or don't shop there anymore.

If you don't like how the government is spending IT'S money, you let them know about it and suggest changes or don't vote for current leaders anymore.

In any case, it's NOT your money, so you can't tell people how to spend it.

It doesn't make any sense to attack people who are simply doing what they are legally allowed to do, and in fact is the same type of thing anyone else does but in different ways.
If you loan a friend $500 so he can pay his rent, you're not going to be happy if he's wearing a brand new pair of  LeBron's $300 sneakers the next day.
First, this isn't a proper analogy, because you are not loaning money to people who utilize government programs. There is no loan involved, and as I already mentioned, it isn't your money anyway.

Second, there is again this notion that you somehow have the right to dictate how someone else spends what money they do have. If you agreed to loan a friend money, unless you specifically agreed he wouldn't spend his own money on certain other things, you have zero right to be angry when he does. As long as he keeps his agreement with you (as it was made) then you have no other claim to what money he spends or where, as he has kept the deal as agreed upon. If he breaks the deal and doesn't pay you as agreed upon, then you can take issue with that, but you still have no right to tell him how else to spend money.
 
 
Same applies to the woman using food stamps to buy her staples then whips out a $100 bill to buy a case of beer and carton of smokes.
You may think she's being unwise, and you're entitled to your opinion. However, you have no right to tell her how to spend her money, regardless of what she buys, the same way no one can tell you how to spend your money.

If you have a problem with someone such as the woman in this example, go to the government. Don't attack someone who is doing nothing legally wrong and act like you have the right to tell them how to live their lives, because you don't.
Too long so I stopped after the first line.

I'll repeat that the government is using money forcible taken from me to fund these programs.    That give me the right to judge how that money is being used. 
11/5/2012 12:42 PM (edited)
Posted by bistiza on 11/5/2012 11:56:00 AM (view original):
That's one of the main problems with America - too many people want to judge others, when they really don't have the right to do so.

People have the right to live their lives they way they want as long as they aren't breaking the law. That's what it means to live in a "free country".

People also have the right to think whatever they'd like, so you can judge whoever you want in your own mind and no one can tell you otherwise.

People also have the right to free speech, which means they can voice those opinions. Still, if I was in the unfortunate circumstance of having to rely on government aid and you saw that and tried to tell me how to live my life, I'd probably tell you where you can shove your opinion as you have no right to tell me how to run my life.

Most people do NOT want financial advise from a random person who wants to judge them simply for using the government programs available to them. If you doubt this, go to a store frequented by such people and every time you see one of them using their food stamp cards, make sure to evaluate their purchases and tell them which ones you think are wise and unwise and see how they react.

without discussing my career in the financial industry on an internet forum...

I can tell you many people of all incomes would like a professional to tell them the best ways to save money.... unfortunately many don't like to take the advice because it's not easy to be fiscally responsible. the real problem with America is that too many people want a quick fix.... that isn't happening.
11/5/2012 1:54 PM
I'll repeat that the government is using money forcible taken from me to fund these programs.    That give me the right to judge how that money is being used.

And as I already said (if you'd actually read you'd know it) once the government has the money, it's their money, not yours. That means your rights to say what is done with it are severely limited, because it's not your money.

If you have a problem with how it's being used, tell the government and/or vote new leaders to be in charge in the government. Don't attack the people who are doing nothing legally wrong.
I can tell you many people of all incomes would like a professional to tell them the best ways to save money.... unfortunately many don't like to take the advice because it's not easy to be fiscally responsible.
 
Perhaps a lot of people would like to have sound financial advice from a professional. However, I doubt most of those who can barely afford their rent and utilities and food and can only scrape by through their food stamp card want you standing in the grocery store and telling them they aren't allowed to purchase the cigarettes they are desperately trying to quit but can't because they're addicted. I doubt those people want you telling them how horrible you think they are for making their purchases. 

For some people, it doesn't matter how fiscally responsible they could try to be, even with your help or the help of others. If the bills for simple necessities in life are far more than the income, you can only stretch the ends so far and when they still don't meet there is a problem. Yet someone with an overly judgmental attitude would simply say "their situation is their own fault" which may also be untrue.

 
11/5/2012 2:05 PM
"And as I already said (if you'd actually read you'd know it) once the government has the money, it's their money, not yours. That means your rights to say what is done with it are severely limited, because it's not your money."

The Democratic candidate for Congress in my district seems to disagree with you.  Should you tell her that she's wrong, or should I?

Stop Social Security privatization.  I also staunchly oppose any attempt to privatize or cut Social Security benefits.  So many of our seniors depend on Social Security just to survive, and for others it is a critical element of their retirement plan.  It’s their money, and they earned it.

of 18
All Forums > General Discussion > Non-Sports > Real Opinions? Who Do You Vote For And Why?

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

Popular on WhatIfSports site: Baseball Simulation | College Basketball Game | College Football Game | Online Baseball Game | Hockey Simulation | NFL Picks | College Football Picks | Sports Games

© 1999-2014 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.