Defense is extremely important and Williams has a case for the Hall, but let's not pretend that Martinez and Williams were equals with the bat. Because they weren't.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/30/2012 7:08:00 PM (view original):
Holy fuckity ****.   You've yelled "Defense and speed" for months about Trout and Cabrera.   Now you backtrack.   GTFO.

so angry. I miss the nice mike. I remember the long bike rides we used to take. the long chats on the bench by the lake. the time I put my nutsack on your drum set.

what exactly am I backtracking???

Also, FTR, I'm not sure either are HOFers,   I'm just saying that Bernie and Edgar are comparable as players simply because not taking the field makes it easier to hit.

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/30/2012 7:17:00 PM (view original):

Also, FTR, I'm not going to pollute this thread with petty bickering with you.    I'm just shocked that the guy screaming "DEFENSE AND SPEED" for weeks on end can't see that they're comparable players. 

So, it tec wants to redline bomb this exchange, I don't blame him.   I'll stop but you'll continue on for days.

Mike-speak for..."oops, he didn't actually backtrack anything, but I don't like him, so I'll argue with anything even if it makes me look stupid."

Seriously Mike, maybe it would be an argument I would listen to coming from someone who's NOT a violently outspoken Yankees fan.  Here are their career lines:

Martinez: 8674 PAs, 514 doubles, 309 home runs  .312/.418/.515  147 OPS+
Williams: 9053 PAs, 449 doubles, 287 home runs  .297/.381./.477  125 OPS+

Williams' best MVP result was 7th, Martinez was 3rd in 1995 when he was at least the best bat in the AL, if not the world.  These career offensive lines don't look AT ALL the same to me.  You could look at one year and not be sure if it was one of Bernie's better years or Edgar's down years, and then say "well, they're both consistent, so if you can't tell whose season it is they must be equal."  Except that's a bullshit argument.  When you actually look at the cumulative numbers, rather than saying "they both hit .300/20/100 every year," they aren't as similar as you want it to seem.  37 points of OBP are huge, 38 points of SLG aren't insignificant.  Martinez also revolutionized a position, albeit the least meaningful position in baseball.  That counts for something as well.  I voted yes on Edgar and no on Bernie, and you haven't even begun to convince me that this was wrong.

There is an award & a street named after Edgar Martinez.  Can the same be said of Bernie?  Plus it's not Edgar's fault the Mariners let him flounder in AAA when they thought Jim Presley was a better 3B.  It's not like Edgar didn't play the field at all!

Posted by MikeT23 on 11/30/2012 8:29:00 PM (view original):
I haven't tried to convince you.    If you think a DH with 22 OPS+ is worth more than a CF, I'm not sure you understand baseball.  So why would I bother attempting to convince you of anything?

It's not just 22 OPS+, maybe you don't have a strong enough understanding of the history of baseball to realize that.  147 OPS+ is elite.  It's tied for 41st all-time.  The guys tied with him there are Jim Thome, Ryan Braun (who knows what will happen with that number at this point), Sam Thompson, Willie McCovey, Mike Schmidt, and Willie Stargell.  The 4 eligible players from that group are all already in the hall.  And again, it puts him in the top 50 all time.

125 OPS+ is MUCH more marginal.  It's tied for 233rd all time.  A couple of the guys at that number are impressive - Yogi Berra, Ron Santo, George Sisler.  Some of the others are Rick Monday, J. D. Drew, and Josh Willingham.  Any of those guys sound like Hall of Famers to you?

You can call it a difference of 22 points of OPS+ and call that small.  I would argue that 20% of a league average batting line is actually quite substantial, it's not 22 points of OPS but 22 points of OPS+, which is actually pretty huge.  But regardless of your opinion on that, I'd say the difference between 41st all-time and 233rd all-time speaks for itself.  I'd think the difference between the worst guys with an equivalent OPS+ being Sam Thompson and Ryan Braun instead of Josh Willingham and Leon Durham speaks volumes as well.

Of course, you probably won't read this anyway, it's too many words for you...

For every 600 PA, so about an average year, Edgar reached base about 20 more times and hit into 30 less outs with similar power.  Bernie has the CF thing going for him over Edgar, though.  I like them both but voted no on both. 

Yes or no for both is understandable.    No for BW and yes for EM is not.

BERNIE IS A TERRIBLE NAME FER A DOG