All Forums > SimLeague Baseball > MLB > Tim Raines HOF
12/20/2012 12:15 PM
Steroids require the effort to actually work out.  

Cocaine requires the effort to chop a line.

If you have the drive to work your *** off, no, I'm not suggesting you're wrong.   If you like to party, yeah, you're way off base.
12/20/2012 1:21 PM
Posted by raucous on 12/20/2012 9:06:00 AM (view original):
Cocaine is a stimulant, like amphetamines.  Similar advantages to both.
Exactly. Most of the stuff I've read suggests that amphetamines are the real problem in baseball. A large percentage of players relied on them to get through the grind. I don't see a real difference between a guy using amphetamines and a guy using cocaine. And I really don't care either way. The moralizing about illegal drug use is idiotic.

Bonds, Clemens, Aaron, and Raines all used illegal drugs during their careers. And all of them belong in the Hall of Fame.
12/20/2012 2:02 PM
Yet, if you have a vote and you're a "no steroids" guy, you can't justify Raines.    Somebody said that yesterday.   Wonder who?
12/20/2012 2:03 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/19/2012 4:10:00 PM (view original):

"During the Pittsburgh drug trials in the early 1980s, Raines testified that he kept a gram of coke in his uniform pocket, snorted during games, and made a point of sliding head-first so as not to break the vial. Not exactly a wholesome image there."
 

If you're going to keep players out for suspected 'roid use, what are you going to do with Tim Raines?

Well. lookie here, it was me.
12/20/2012 2:12 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/20/2012 2:02:00 PM (view original):
Yet, if you have a vote and you're a "no steroids" guy, you can't justify Raines.    Somebody said that yesterday.   Wonder who?
You can, if you don't think cocaine use improves long-term performance as much as steroids do.
12/20/2012 2:19 PM
So you think it's the "long-term effect" of steroids that convinces people not to vote for the 'roid guys?

Interesting take.    Source?
12/20/2012 2:30 PM
I mean, I'm using common sense.  I haven't used cocaine before, but I can't imagine someone's numbers would change as much as Sosa's, McGwire's, Bonds, etc did during their steroid use, just by using cocaine. 
12/20/2012 2:34 PM
That sounds scientific.
12/20/2012 2:39 PM
I am a scientist.
12/20/2012 2:51 PM
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/20/2012 12:15:00 PM (view original):
Steroids require the effort to actually work out.  

Cocaine requires the effort to chop a line.

If you have the drive to work your *** off, no, I'm not suggesting you're wrong.   If you like to party, yeah, you're way off base.
People using steroids aren't lacking the effort.
12/20/2012 3:02 PM
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/20/2012 2:30:00 PM (view original):
I mean, I'm using common sense.  I haven't used cocaine before, but I can't imagine someone's numbers would change as much as Sosa's, McGwire's, Bonds, etc did during their steroid use, just by using cocaine. 
I assume you've also never played a 162 games in 200 days largely going from city to city after 3 games.   Late nights, long flights, strange beds, groupies and plenty of alcohol. 

Yeah, a quick pick-me-up for about 150 of those games wouldn't change the numbers of someone who was dead tired.
12/20/2012 3:26 PM
I'm not saying cocaine wouldn't help performance.  I'm arguing that steroid use would help much more.  

I would also argue that long-term use of cocaine may not be helpful; it's probably more likely to hurt you.  Addiction is a bad thing, right?

I understand if someone doesn't vote Raines for this reason, but I don't agree with those who say you CAN'T vote him in if you don't vote in steroid users.

If someone's argument is "cocaine is an illegal drug, he sets a terrible example of fans who watch him, etc..." then I do understand where you are coming from.
12/20/2012 3:32 PM
I'm pretty sure you don't have to be an addict to do coke.  Anyway, I'm not changing your mind as to how much it affects your performance but it does. 
12/20/2012 3:35 PM
I do recognize it affects performance in a positive way.
12/20/2012 3:55 PM
Posted by mat_cauthon on 12/20/2012 2:47:00 PM (view original):
No to Tim Raines.  Good player, borderline HOF'er, but the whole cocaine in his back pocket while playing baseball thing sets him back a bit.  Just an opinion, of course, as everyone has one.
Borderline, really? Most analysis suggests that he is easily Hall of Fame worthy. 
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